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It's pretty clear at this point that OP is a troll. Completely ignoring users' helpful comments regarding ID and instead constantly trying to argue random and absurd points (claiming it's clearly a Stint, Sharp-tailed Sandpiper, etc.). All ID issues in the thread have been resolved, so where OP goes from here is solely his or her problem. If OP wants to believe (as a troll or not) that we're wrong, they are perfectly welcome to. Not really any point in continuing the discussion, though, as OP seems not to care about the guidance offered to him.

I don't really understand the point of trolling a birding forum, but ok. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

Edited by Benjamin
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10 hours ago, Benjamin said:

It's pretty clear at this point that OP is a troll. Completely ignoring users' helpful comments regarding ID and instead constantly trying to argue random and absurd points (claiming it's clearly a Stint, Sharp-tailed Sandpiper, etc.). All ID issues in the thread have been resolved, so where OP goes from here is solely his or her problem. If OP wants to believe (as a troll or not) that we're wrong, they are perfectly welcome to. Not really any point in continuing the discussion, though, as OP seems not to care about the guidance offered to him.

I don't really understand the point of trolling a birding forum, but ok. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

Who's the troll?

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Before this got crazy, we can rule out LTST that you originally thought a single bird was. First, note the bill. It’s all dark LTST at this time almost always have a pale base to the lower mandible. Back patterning is wrong as well, with it not being rufous enough and the individual feathers have the wrong pattern. 
 

All I ask for your own good, please don’t post this on eBird, or to a local bird email group etc. Your reputation as a birder could be ruined. If you find something rare in the future, not able to get photos, no one will believe you. Reputation is important in the birding community. If you keep reporting fake ratites, people will loose trust in you. 

Edited by Connor Cochrane
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2 hours ago, Connor Cochrane said:

Before this got crazy, we can rule out LTST that you originally thought a single bird was. First, note the bill. It’s all dark LTST at this time almost always have a pale base to the lower mandible. Back patterning is wrong as well, with it not being rufous enough and the individual feathers have the wrong pattern. 
 

All I ask for your own good, please don’t post this on eBird, or to a local bird email group etc. Your reputation as a birder could be ruined. If you find something rare in the future, not able to get photos, no one will believe you. Reputation is important in the birding community. If you keep reporting fake ratites, people will loose trust in you. 

That's fine I should do more personal study and understand this all better. You don't have to answer me, and perhaps you know the explanation, but one of the things I'm going to try to figure out is: where is all of the rufous fringe that should be at least SOMEWHERE in the lower scapular area and especially the whole wing coverts area? There's no rufous there, just some creamy buff wash and significant areas of "white" fringes. Can be seen also in the crisp white outer tertial fringe. Its said that the head and face patterns are really the most reliable approach to identification of these, so perhaps this doesn't matter.

So long - and thanks for all the fish...

609815102_wherestherufous.jpg.e8a83281f597fecb1bffe0a977881252.jpg

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Maybe I'm a simpleton, but I ID peeps by process of elimination. It has yellow legs - it's a LESA or PESA. It has a short all dark bill/it's small and round - must be a LESA. It has a longer pale based bill/it's chunky and larger than the other peeps - must be a PESA. 

There are innumerable plumage differences between them all so I stick with ID points that are pretty much always the same - bill and legs, wing extension, etc. I don't pretend to understand and know every plumage variation. 

Edited by Melierax
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None of us here are experts on stint ID, as most of us live in America. Probably 2/3 of the people where haven't even seen a stint. If you really think this could be a long-toed stint, I encourage you to go over to https://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=114. Most of the users there are based in Europe and most likely know a lot more about stint ID than us here. I would be interested to see their ideas on this bird. In my opinion the middle toe of that bird doesn't look long enough for long-toed in the most recent photo you have attached. 

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1 hour ago, Connor Cochrane said:

None of us here are experts on stint ID, as most of us live in America. Probably 2/3 of the people where haven't even seen a stint. If you really think this could be a long-toed stint, I encourage you to go over to https://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=114. Most of the users there are based in Europe and most likely know a lot more about stint ID than us here. I would be interested to see their ideas on this bird. In my opinion the middle toe of that bird doesn't look long enough for long-toed in the most recent photo you have attached. 

Thanks. Regarding the toe length the people who found one in England said that it's not so much how the middle toe compares to the other toes - they instead compared the ratio between the middle toe and tarsus lengths, but ultimately said the ratios aren't reliably distinct from Least. Same with the "almost always" pale lower mandible - the confirmed Oregon bird showed a regular black bill.

I've been doing this as more of an exercise of learning the systems and learning the LESA field markings; if I take a list of LTST distinguishing features and then look at some LESAs, that should be a great way for me to refine my recognition of LESA traits. The problem is many of those traits end up not carrying much weight, so it's seems subjective. I literally don't care if it's impossible that a LTST would be nearby; I thought that using LTST criteria to examine LESAs would enable me to fully support my LESA ID. How hard is it to justify a LESA ID when it's the only possibility? I'm putting pressure on the process to find out how reliable it is. I'm not "trying to prove it's a LTST", I'm trying to use LESA/LTST differentiators to make the ID - not LAT LONG. Anyway, cheers!

 

Edited by Soohegan
England not Oregon
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What puzzles us is why you'd start with a LTST as a basis for comparison to LESA.  Is LTST a bird you're already familiar with?  Are you a new arrival to the States?  In that case, your approach makes a bit more sense.  Otherwise, if you're not already familiar with LTST, it sounds like you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.

Edited by Charlie Spencer
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18 minutes ago, Charlie Spencer said:

What puzzles us is why you'd start with a LTST as a basis for comparison to LESA.  Is LTST a bird you're already familiar with?  Are you a new arrival to the States?  In that case, your approach makes a bit more sense.  Otherwise, if you're not already familiar with LTST, it sounds like you're making this more difficult than it needs to be.

These birds looked overall different at a glance from the LESAs I had been observing daily. Simply the immediate, unprompted sense that they were different. The brown was different, and their feathers gave more of a coarse texture look. I wanted to find out why they looked different, and there are basically two options: LTST or some kind of LESA "color morph" or "type" or whatnot, but I haven't seen anything about these type of LESA variations. My goal was to explain my observation and not cheat by making any assumptions. One of the first pictures that I set aside when I first saw this flock was titled "LESA - very short very straight bill" as an example...

Edited by Soohegan
morph
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