Downy vs Hairy?

[StacyC]

From my research I think a Downy and a Hairy male woodpecker, but I'm unsure? One seems to be much smaller than the other, I haven't seen them land together yet so it's hard to tell, but here are a few photos comparisons. Both spotted near Lake George, CO yesterday. 

What I believe is Downy are in first photos, then Hairy following in next two photos.

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by StacyC

[psweet]

These all look like Downy. Hairy has a distinctly longer bill, and a spur of black extending forwards from the shoulder. 

[StacyC]

Ok, so there are just different sizes of Downy?

[hbvol50]

I don't know, 3rd photo looks like a hairy to me

[StacyC]

That’s what I thought too, but it’s hard when the types look so similar! Haha. 

[psweet]

No shoulder spur, the bill looks a bit long but not what I'd consider Hairy size, and the bird next to him is a Pygmy Nuthatch, smaller than either a Red-breasted or a Brown-headed. Still looks good for Downy to me.

[StacyC]

Ok, so Downy’s can be smaller and bigger? 

[psweet]

Okay, if you're reading a size out of a field guide or on-line source, and it gives you one number -- laugh at it. Just like people aren't all 5'6", Downy Woodpeckers aren't all 6.5" -- those are averages, and there's variation around them. Pyle lists wing measurements as 84 - 115 mm, for instance, which is a fair bit of variation. Interestingly, he also lists overlap between Downy and Hairy in both wing and tail measurements, although that may be a geographic issue. (Large Downy in one place could overlap with small Hairy somewhere else, without ever showing an overlap at any one location.) The one measurement he doesn't show overlap with is the bill length, although even there they can come closer than field guides often make it look.

Looking back at that third bird, I'm not quite as comfortable calling it as I was -- there isn't a shoulder spur which a Hairy should show, but the head and bill look a bit bigger than I was thinking.

[StacyC]

27 minutes ago, psweet said:

Okay, if you're reading a size out of a field guide or on-line source, and it gives you one number -- laugh at it. Just like people aren't all 5'6", Downy Woodpeckers aren't all 6.5" -- those are averages, and there's variation around them. Pyle lists wing measurements as 84 - 115 mm, for instance, which is a fair bit of variation. Interestingly, he also lists overlap between Downy and Hairy in both wing and tail measurements, although that may be a geographic issue. (Large Downy in one place could overlap with small Hairy somewhere else, without ever showing an overlap at any one location.) The one measurement he doesn't show overlap with is the bill length, although even there they can come closer than field guides often make it look.

Looking back at that third bird, I'm not quite as comfortable calling it as I was -- there isn't a shoulder spur which a Hairy should show, but the head and bill look a bit bigger than I was thinking.

True, that makes sense. So it’s probanly just a few sizes of Downy. Thanks for the explanation!

[lonesome55dove]

I think 1, 3 and 4 are all Hairy's...there is not any barring/spots on the outside edge of the tail.  The bill on the second one looks pretty stout to me...not as dainty and sharply pointed as a Downy's should look. ?

[psweet]

#3 may be, the others are clearly Downy's. Hairy don't have stout bills -- they have long bills. The barring on the outer tail feathers is tricky in photos -- most of the time you're only seeing a little bit of a couple of feathers, and you won't see any bars. Even if you are seeing the entire feather, it turns out that Downy's don't always have very much (little enough that you might not see it even in #3), and Hairy's occasionally show a small amount -- to the point that there is actually a bit of overlap.

[akiley]

These photos are an excellent example of why black spots on the outer tail feathers (or lack thereof) is not a reliable field mark. 

[HamRHead]

I am very much in training on these guys, but #3 looks like a good candidate for Hairy based on length of bill--nearly as long as the head, narrow white stripe under eye/minimal neck patch (http://www.sibleyguides.com/2011/02/a-new-clue-for-identifying-downy-and-hairy-woodpeckers/), and what appears to be a hint of a shoulder spur (https://birdeden.com/how-to-distinguish-between-downy-hairy-woodpecker). Psweet's comments on size are well taken, and Pyle is the definitive source for bird specs, but judging by the suet cake, this bird is larger than the Downys I see at my suet. Finally one more observation from Sibley on the red patch at the back of the head on males. It seems to be divided on Hairys: http://www.sibleyguides.com/2011/03/another-clue-for-identifying-downy-and-hairy-woodpeckers/

[HamRHead]

Here is another link with some good information and a comparative photo of a Hairy and a Downy on a suet cake: https://www.thespruce.com/downy-or-hairy-woodpecker-387335

[StacyC]

Thank you! 

[jcarscadden]

i tend to agree..at least with the third image....Hairy

the pictures of the bird are harder for me ...but when  usually say that the Downy..in additon to being smaller and shorter bill...has a more prnounced "forehead" as the Hairy's is more sloping

[psweet]

Sibley, if I remember right, noted later on that the "divided nape patch" mark is geographically variable, and that you need to know what the local situation is to use it.

[StacyC]

14 hours ago, HamRHead said:

Here is another link with some good information and a comparative photo of a Hairy and a Downy on a suet cake: https://www.thespruce.com/downy-or-hairy-woodpecker-387335

Thank you! When looking at that photo it looks like the two birds I saw!

[Charlie Spencer]

The woodpecker in the third photo looks larger than the one in the others when I compare the size of the birds to the suet feeder.

I'm just sayin'.

[The Bird Nuts]

I think the first two are Downies and the last two are Hairies.

[StacyC]

1 hour ago, Charlie Spencer said:

The woodpecker in the third photo looks larger than the one in the others when I compare the size of the birds to the suet feeder.

I'm just sayin'.

Right! 

[StacyC]

29 minutes ago, The Bird Nuts said:

I think the first two are Downies and the last two are Hairies.

After getting a bird book then comparing the photos on my laptop that’s what I’m seeing too! 

[lonesome55dove]

I live in the Pacific Northwest, South-Central Washington state, this is what Downy and Hairy's bills look like here.

Stout, adj: thick and strong. Sturdy.  Perhaps I could have/should have chosen a different word but that is how I see it as compared to a Downy's bill. ? 

 

 

[StacyC]

Thank you! These are excellent pics for helping me out. 

[lonesome55dove]

7 hours ago, StacyC said:

Thank you! These are excellent pics for helping me out. 

You're welcome. ?