Corey Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 Today in southern Nevada. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 Definitely has some Red-breasted in it, though I have a felling it's a hybrid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 I like a hybrid as well. Too much red for Red-naped, but that face pattern is wrong for red breasted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHenry Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 I’m fine with calling it Red-breasted. A Red-naped x Red-breasted hybrid should show some of the black breast shield of a Red-naped. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHenry Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 http://www.woodpeckerwonderland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Shunk-2005-Sapsucker-Hybrids.pdf The cover bird in this article is a classic Red-naped x Red-breasted male showing both the black breast shield and some red on the breast below the black. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted December 25, 2020 Author Share Posted December 25, 2020 Thanks for the input. This bird is rare here. In the last 2 years I've only seen one twice, and they had an all-red head. I couldn't find any other photos of this bird with this kind of pattern on the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melierax Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 The white supercilium hints towards hybrid. I'm good with hybrid - doesn't look pure to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHenry Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 (edited) I disagree. Nothing about this bird seems inconsistent with a pure dagetti Red-breasted Sapsucker. https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/198227291#_ga=2.43925670.2088161008.1605810651-2133650673.1605810651 Red-breasted Sapsuckers are pretty variable, they can have pretty limited red on the head. That does not necessarily mean it’s a hybrid. Edited December 25, 2020 by AlexHenry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melierax Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 58 minutes ago, AlexHenry said: I disagree. Nothing about this bird seems inconsistent with a pure dagetti Red-breasted Sapsucker. https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/198227291#_ga=2.43925670.2088161008.1605810651-2133650673.1605810651 Red-breasted Sapsuckers are pretty variable, they can have pretty limited red on the head. That does not necessarily mean it’s a hybrid. Why do you think it's not a hybrid? There are some dark areas in the breast, and I'm examining tons of photos of hybrids and they all look closer to this bird than a dagetti, most particularly with the extent of white in the supercilium. I'm not completely sure, but I'd like to better understand your reasoning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHenry Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, Melierax said: Why do you think it's not a hybrid? It does not have the black breast shield showing through the red on the breast. A hybrid should show this. Otherwise, I think the facial pattern is within range for a pure Red-breasted, although it may have less extensive red than the average Red-breasted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melierax Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, AlexHenry said: It does not have the black breast shield showing through the red on the breast. A hybrid should show this. Otherwise, I think the facial pattern is within range for a pure Red-breasted, although it may have less extensive red than the average Red-breasted. Mmkay... The second and third photos are the ones that could show a black breast shield, and I'm not sure you can see quite enough to say there isn't some black there. I'm just looking at eBird photos of hybrids, and there are plenty that show clear hybrid facial patterns but minimal or blotchy black on the chest. It doesn't have to be a solid black band: https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/273892531#_ga=2.44489508.1470592558.1608935090-646883966.1598537587 https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/212097781#_ga=2.7723186.1470592558.1608935090-646883966.1598537587 I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that's enough to say it isn't a hybrid. Here's a quote off of birds of the world: Dagetti is "Similar to S. r. ruber, but red on head and breast is somewhat duller and more orange, auriculars often with black, and white malar more prominent" From what I've read, dagetti don't really have white superciliums that often. Even in the photo you shared the comments suggested a possible hybrid. Again, I'm no expert, I'm learning myself here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexHenry Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 It COULD be a hybrid but without any black breast shield showing there is no real evidence to support Red-naped parentage. Again I think the facial pattern is within range for a dagetti 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan B Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 It looks very similar to the dagetti around my area. Compare It to this one from my patch. https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/270256391#_ga=2.156209211.1814565316.1608788119-569064978.1605837951 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLecy Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 This appears fine for a pure S. r. daggetti to me. Btw, two 'g's and two 't's in daggetti. https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/198397551#_ga=2.213280726.314690642.1607699442-635920480.1580272015 https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/206988351#_ga=2.179315558.314690642.1607699442-635920480.1580272015 https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/47538091#_ga=2.117925579.314690642.1607699442-635920480.1580272015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melierax Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 @Tony Leukering I've contacted some people from AZ who say the ones that look like this are deemed to be hybrids. What do you think? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 i haven't even seen any sapsucker!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLecy Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 On 12/25/2020 at 4:22 PM, Melierax said: From what I've read, dagetti don't really have white superciliums that often. From Peterson Reference Guide to Woodpeckers; "S. r. daggetti...head pattern approaches that of Red-naped Sapsucker, sometimes with blackish ear patch and partial white supercilium, prominent malar stripe, and red chest weakly demarcated from paler yellow belly. Back is more heavily marked than that of S. r. ruber, approaching that of Red-naped." I concur with @AlexHenry that this bird looks to be within the range variation for daggetti. Perhaps there is something going on here that I am not seeing. Is there any other reason you think this is a hybrid other than the white supercilium? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan B Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 The GISS of the first photo feels like a Hybrid to me, but all the other photos all match up with a daggetti, and I agree that it is daggetti. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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