Hoary Redpoll in S. Vermont

[mfoster.vt 13]

I am pretty sure this is a Hoary Redpoll but wanted to run it by others before adding it to my checklist.  This was in a flock of about 180 commons.  I think it is the same bird, but it could be different birds as they were constantly on the move and getting pics was difficult.  Seems to check all the boxes.  Smaller beak, very light color, no streaking on the undertail coverts (though I never got a really good photo of that).  It's a rarity here, so I wanted to be sure before I called it.  Last 2 photos are not in focus, but I think show the bird in profile showing a bit of a squashed face and small beak.

 

 

[IKLland 584]

I am no expert, but I I will try. Common?

[IKLland 584]

@Averyhas more experience with these guys.

[Avery 1,056]

Well, there are at least three different birds here, with the last two being the same. 
First bird has a lot of red and streaking on the breast for a Hoary, but it is certainly frosty enough, though that darn stick is in front of the UnTC. I would leave that birds as a redpoll sp to be safe. 
Second bird has at least two streaks in the UnTC and some thick streaks on the flanks, so I would say Common. 
Third birds I’d leave as redpoll sp, although the streaking looks good. The beak doesn’t seem small enough, and there is at least one streak in the UnTC in what we can see of it, so it could or could not be hiding more. 
Fourth birds is the best candidate for a Hoary, though I personally wouldn’t call it one just by the pics. The dealbreaker for me is the rump. I would say yes if the bird in the last pics had a clean pale rump. 

Hope that helps!

I know of several places in South VT with large flocks of redpolls, and there are a ton of frosty birds, and trying to view one bird for a long time is hard. However, the rump is often best viewed in flight, so that can make it easier. 

[IKLland 584]

6 hours ago, Avery said:

Well, there are at least three different birds here, with the last two being the same. 
First bird has a lot of red and streaking on the breast for a Hoary, but it is certainly frosty enough, though that darn stick is in front of the UnTC. I would leave that birds as a redpoll sp to be safe. 
Second bird has at least two streaks in the UnTC and some thick streaks on the flanks, so I would say Common. 
Third birds I’d leave as redpoll sp, although the streaking looks good. The beak doesn’t seem small enough, and there is at least one streak in the UnTC in what we can see of it, so it could or could not be hiding more. 
Fourth birds is the best candidate for a Hoary, though I personally wouldn’t call it one just by the pics. The dealbreaker for me is the rump. I would say yes if the bird in the last pics had a clean pale rump. 

Hope that helps!

I know of several places in South VT with large flocks of redpolls, and there are a ton of frosty birds, and trying to view one bird for a long time is hard. However, the rump is often best viewed in flight, so that can make it easier. 

Wow you are great with redpolls! Nice job! For bird one since  you are unsure because it points to both, do the two have hybrids?

[mfoster.vt 13]

Thanks Avery.  I decided to call them all common as I didn’t have any good pics showing the key markers.  I’m sure there were probably one or more in the flock as I counted 160 in this group

[Avery 1,056]

10 hours ago, IKLland said:

Wow you are great with redpolls! Nice job! For bird one since  you are unsure because it points to both, do the two have hybrids?

Oh dear god I hope not...

No, it’s just best to not call it either way, and leave it as redpoll sp. I don’t think eBird has a slash since there are only two redpoll species (right?). There are some surprisingly hoarish commons and some surprisingly common hoarys. 

[IKLland 584]

3 hours ago, Avery said:

Oh dear god I hope not...

No, it’s just best to not call it either way, and leave it as redpoll sp. I don’t think eBird has a slash since there are only two redpoll species (right?). There are some surprisingly hoarish commons and some surprisingly common hoarys. 

Yeah, if they did have hybrids identification would be literally impossible. I think there is only two species. But I have no experience with either one, I knew you have lots of ex with both, that’s why I asked.

[Kevin 3,712]

4 hours ago, Avery said:

Oh dear god I hope not...

No, it’s just best to not call it either way, and leave it as redpoll sp. I don’t think eBird has a slash since there are only two redpoll species (right?). There are some surprisingly hoarish commons and some surprisingly common hoarys. 

Three, Lesser Redpoll.

[Birding Boy 1,554]

I am now going to have nightmares about redpoll hybrids. Thanks.

[IKLland 584]

6 hours ago, Birding Boy said:

I am now going to have nightmares about redpoll hybrids. Thanks.

Your welcome😏

[Aaron 631]

There was (is?) lots of chatter about the possibility of lumping the redpolls together due to very little genetic variation between them. There’s a few studies and articles about it but none that I’ve found from the last couple years.

So I suppose if the day ever comes that they are all lumped together, we can all let out a big sigh of relief. 
Though, it would make everyone’s possible life list 2 species shorter. 

[Avery 1,056]

8 hours ago, Aaron said:

There was (is?) lots of chatter about the possibility of lumping the redpolls together due to very little genetic variation between them. There’s a few studies and articles about it but none that I’ve found from the last couple years.

So I suppose if the day ever comes that they are all lumped together, we can all let out a big sigh of relief. 
Though, it would make everyone’s possible life list 2 species shorter. 

What would that do to the subspecies? Would there become four subspecies, or a system of sub subspecies?