Hawk; lake george CO september

[kansabirdguy]

what is this hawk? Rough-legged? sorry about the definition. 

[AlexHenry]

Might be a Red-tail with those dark patagial bars, tough to tell though

[Birding Boy]

3 minutes ago, AlexHenry said:

Might be a Red-tail with those dark patagial bars, tough to tell though

Definitely Red-tailed. Assuming this was taken recently, date alone would make RLHA pretty unlikely.

[Phalarope713]

Red-tailed Hawk

[kansabirdguy]

13 hours ago, Birding Boy said:

Definitely Red-tailed. Assuming this was taken recently, date alone would make RLHA pretty unlikely.

This was taken in Lake George in September of 2020.

[Tony Leukering]

1 hour ago, kansabirdguy said:

This was taken in Lake George in September of 2020.

Still a RTHA

Bar Charts - eBird

[Clip]

6 minutes ago, Tony Leukering said:

Still a RTHA

Bar Charts - eBird

Curious why the bar chart? Yes Rough-legged Hawk looks uncommon in September but not impossible. Wouldn't it be better to describe the field marks to show why it is a Red-tailed Hawk?

[The Bird Nuts]

2 hours ago, Clip said:

Curious why the bar chart? Yes Rough-legged Hawk looks uncommon in September but not impossible. Wouldn't it be better to describe the field marks to show why it is a Red-tailed Hawk?

I think Tony is just backing up what @Birding Boy said about how the date would make RLHA unlikely.

[kansabirdguy]

Thank you for the input. Kinda' embarrassing:) I thought rough legged because of the white patches. Now that you all say Red-tailed I can see that:) @Tony Leukering @Birding Boy  @The Bird Nuts  @Clip @Phalarope713 @AlexHenry

[Tony Leukering]

3 hours ago, Clip said:

looks uncommon in September

??? There is a total of ONE individual RLHA in September in the CO ebird data in some 68,000 checklists -- so MUCH, MUCH rarer than "uncommon." In fact, Groove-billed Ani is equally "uncommon" in Sep in CO. I would not be surprised if that hawk were mis-ID'ed.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Tony Leukering
addition

[Clip]

1 hour ago, Tony Leukering said:

??? There is a total of ONE individual RLHA in September in the CO ebird data in some 68,000 checklists -- so MUCH, MUCH rarer than "uncommon." In fact, Groove-billed Ani is equally "uncommon" in Sep in CO. I would not be surprised if that hawk were mis-ID'ed.

Just curious why no one gave field marks for their id. Probably more helpful down the line than a bar chart is all.

[Clip]

1 hour ago, kansabirdguy said:

Thank you for the input. Kinda' embarrassing:) I thought rough legged because of the white patches. Now that you all say Red-tailed I can see that:) @Tony Leukering @Birding Boy  @The Bird Nuts  @Clip @Phalarope713 @AlexHenry

Don't be embarrassed we are ALL still learning.

[Clip]

2 hours ago, The Bird Nuts said:

I think Tony is just backing up what @Birding Boy said about how the date would make RLHA unlikely.

Just no one gave field marks which for me any way would be more helpful down the line than a bar chart.

[The Bird Nuts]

16 minutes ago, Clip said:

Just no one gave field marks which for me any way would be more helpful down the line than a bar chart.

 

20 hours ago, AlexHenry said:

Might be a Red-tail with those dark patagial bars, tough to tell though

 

[DLecy]

20 hours ago, AlexHenry said:

Might be a Red-tail with those dark patagial bars, tough to tell though

 

15 minutes ago, Clip said:

Just no one gave field marks which for me any way would be more helpful down the line than a bar chart.

@AlexHenry Gave a field mark in the very first post. So...

Wing shape is also RTHA, as RLHA have wings that appear longer and more tapered, IMO.

[DLecy]

1 hour ago, Clip said:

Just no one gave field marks which for me any way would be more helpful down the line than a bar chart.

My opinion differs greatly with regards to the above statement. Field marks are by no way the only method for identifying a bird. Conclusive field ID is often a combination of field marks, behavior, habitat, and for migratory birds, seasonality. I find bar charts to be infinitely useful.

For example, if the bar charts tell you that RLHA has never been recorded at your location during month X, it is almost certain you are not looking at a RLHA, which saves you from having to muddle through what can be a difficult ID.

Edited June 19, 2021 by DLecy
Typo

[Charlie Spencer]

3 hours ago, Clip said:

Just curious why no one gave field marks for their id. Probably more helpful down the line than a bar chart is all.

Here ya go.

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Red-tailed_Hawk/id

[Clip]

6 hours ago, Charlie Spencer said:

Here ya go.

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Red-tailed_Hawk/id

This bird particularly.

[Clip]

8 hours ago, DLecy said:

My opinion differs greatly with regards to the above statement. Field marks are by no way the only method for identifying a bird. Conclusive field ID is often a combination of field marks, behavior, habitat, and for migratory birds, seasonality. I find bar charts to be infinitely useful.

For example, if the bar charts tell you that RLHA has never been recorded at your location during month X, it is almost certain you are not looking at a RLHA, which saves you from having to muddle through what can be a difficult ID.

What about in November? All hawks soar overhead like this one so behavior not applicable. Date on the camera can be wrong or memory off...Yes dates can be helpful and bar charts are great especially for scientific research but for someone learning to id the birds they see in the field not very useful.

[Charlie Spencer]

2 hours ago, Clip said:

What about in November? All hawks soar overhead like this one so behavior not applicable. Date on the camera can be wrong or memory off...Yes dates can be helpful and bar charts are great especially for scientific research but for someone learning to id the birds they see in the field not very useful.

If there's information you'd think should be posted, you have the option to post it.

[Clip]

23 hours ago, Charlie Spencer said:

If there's information you'd think should be posted, you have the option to post it.

Tony has written articles on describing birds for ebird so I was hoping to see his take on the field marks for this bird. As everyone knows that has birded for any length of time the birds do not read the books published about them and they could careless about bar charts so they come early, they stay late, some even over winter or over summer in places the books and bar charts say they shouldn't be. These birds are often dismissed by ebird administrators as unconfirmed most likely because the bird wasn't described well enough and there was no photo. Ebird listers are held to a very high standard by administrators getting rare or rare for the season birds confirmed yet when a teachable moments occurs like on this Red-tailed Hawk I see crickets on the field marks from an ebird administrator. Additionally, while I agree this is definitely a Red-tailed Hawk it is one that is more difficult to describe than typical light adult. I would have trouble putting in to words the field marks I see that make this a Red-tailed Hawk. Having personally seen many birds that arrive early, stay late or over stay the bar chart provided really means very little.

[Charlie Spencer]

2 hours ago, Clip said:

Tony has written articles on describing birds for ebird so I was hoping to see his take on the field marks for this bird.

If that was your goal, it might have been more effective to '@' him and ask a direct question.  I interpreted your previous comments as attempts to benefit the original poster, and to get other to include field marks as a routine part of their replies. That's why I posted the AAB page.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Charlie Spencer

[lonestranger]

I agree that bar charts can be a useful tool. I'm not sure how a blank bar chart is useful in ruling out a rarity though. There would be no point in looking for rarities if they're ruled out by a blank bar chart, would there? Wouldn't ALL rarities show up as a blank bar chart right up until that rarity is reported and accepted? I am not suggesting that a rarity should be considered in this, or any uncertain ID, but ruling out a rarity based on a blank bar chart rules out the possibility of finding ANY rarities, in my opinion. As it has been stated in different ways before, birds don't follow range maps and they don't pay any attention to past statistics, they are game changers that don't give a damn about our interpretation of the rules or the boundaries of the game we play. 😉

 

[Clip]

1 hour ago, Charlie Spencer said:

I interpreted your previous comments as attempts to benefit the original poster, and to get other to include field marks as a routine part of their replies.

Yes Exactly! I wanted to see more not for me specifically but for the OP specifically and me and others more generally. That is what makes forums like this so great. One person can ask a question but multiple can learn as an aside.

[DLecy]

 

1 hour ago, lonestranger said:

I agree that bar charts can be a useful tool. I'm not sure how a blank bar chart is useful in ruling out a rarity though. There would be no point in looking for rarities if they're ruled out by a blank bar chart, would there? Wouldn't ALL rarities show up as a blank bar chart right up until that rarity is reported and accepted? I am not suggesting that a rarity should be considered in this, or any uncertain ID, but ruling out a rarity based on a blank bar chart rules out the possibility of finding ANY rarities, in my opinion. As it has been stated in different ways before, birds don't follow range maps and they don't pay any attention to past statistics, they are game changers that don't give a damn about our interpretation of the rules or the boundaries of the game we play. 😉

 

Sort of. A completely blank bar chart is helpful as it indicates that you are reporting a county or state first and you should have it VERY WELL documented. If the ID is in question or you have scant evidence, it’s best if the ID is left not to species level before consulting with experts or the reviewers themselves. 

A blank section(month) let’s you know that it’s extremely unlikely that you are seeing a bird outside of its seasonal pattern.

To say that birds don’t pay attention to range maps or statistics is very misleading IMHO, as these bar charts are informed by mounds upon mounds of real scientific data. With climate change, there is little doubts that these graphs and charts will shift, but the default should always be to pay close attention to what the data is saying to you, and in some cases, screaming at you. 

https://ebird.org/barchart?r=US-CO&bmo=1&emo=12&byr=1900&eyr=2021&spp=rolhaw