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33 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

I don't think there is enough dusky head marking on this one. If a hybrid I would say Herring x Glaucous-winged.

Amount of head streaking is very variable in hybrids and shouldn’t be used to make an ID. A few things here are wrong for Cook Inlet, including bill shape, mantle color (which is very light in Cook Inslet), and the primaries. 

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2 hours ago, Connor Cochrane said:

Amount of head streaking is very variable in hybrids and shouldn’t be used to make an ID. A few things here are wrong for Cook Inlet, including bill shape, mantle color (which is very light in Cook Inslet), and the primaries. 

Just wondering: why not herring x glaucous-winged?

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10 hours ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

I don't think there is enough dusky head marking on this one

Up here the Glaucous-wingeds and Olympics are already into breeding in February. This is already blotchier than a bunch of gulls I have pics of this year around the same date.

(As an aside, way up the thread I made reference to our Olympics being "greater": that's an inexplicable autocorrect for "paler")

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12 hours ago, PaulK said:

Up here the Glaucous-wingeds and Olympics are already into breeding in February. This is already blotchier than a bunch of gulls I have pics of this year around the same date.

(As an aside, way up the thread I made reference to our Olympics being "greater": that's an inexplicable autocorrect for "paler")

Reasons why I think herring:

Wingtips on hybrids are usually lighter, not like the clear black we see here. Bill length and shape is highly variable, as bills are subjected to wear and deformities, so bill characteristics should never be used singly to make an id. Immature herrings can have a duskier iris, so an immature transitioning to adult plumage would make sense for this photo. Might also explain the mottling. Place is heavily birded, so people probably would have noticed an olympic before. Although hybrids are variable, I think within a reasonable margin of error that this is a Herring Gull.

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This is going to be my last post on this thread sense clearly you won't change your mind. 

20 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Reasons why I think herring:

Wingtips on hybrids are usually lighter, not like the clear black we see here.

The wingtips here are not 'clear black', instead they are grayish, typical color in many hybrids. Herrings have jet black wingtips that would look a lot darker, even in this photo.

20 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Bill length and shape is highly variable, as bills are subjected to wear and deformities, so bill characteristics should never be used singly to make an id.

Of course there can be deformities in bill size and shape, however that's a rare occurrence. Herring's have long, parallel edged bills while Western, Glacuous-winged and Olympic show a shorter, thicker, more bulbous tipped bill, just like this bird shows.

20 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Immature herrings can have a duskier iris, so an immature transitioning to adult plumage would make sense for this photo

These are not my photos, but here are some photos of subadult Herring Gulls in February 

image.thumb.png.4a6aac6b0d6846a16e57125e051a7aee.png

image.png.bf23a1497cfa89e9fc3f4c0e2c1c47e7.png

 

I believe starting in 3cy (maybe some 2cy birds as well?) Herring Gulls always have a light iris, so by the time it would be transitioning into adult plumage it's eye would've been light for 1-2 years.

26 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Might also explain the mottling. 

Almost all adult gulls of most large Larus species show mottling/streaking on their heads and necks during winter. It really shouldn't be used to identify species. However, HERG usually are more streaky and Western and Glaucous winged are more mottly.

28 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Place is heavily birded, so people probably would have noticed an olympic before. 

Olympics are the most common large gulls with dark wingtips in the Metro Vancouver area.

https://ebird.org/barchart?byr=1900&eyr=2021&bmo=1&emo=12&r=CA-BC-GV&spp=x00050,x00051,wesgul,hergul,y00478

 

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1 minute ago, Connor Cochrane said:

This is going to be my last post on this thread sense clearly you won't change your mind. 

The wingtips here are not 'clear black', instead they are grayish, typical color in many hybrids. Herrings have jet black wingtips that would look a lot darker, even in this photo.

Of course there can be deformities in bill size and shape, however that's a rare occurrence. Herring's have long, parallel edged bills while Western, Glacuous-winged and Olympic show a shorter, thicker, more bulbous tipped bill, just like this bird shows.

These are not my photos, but here are some photos of subadult Herring Gulls in February 

image.thumb.png.4a6aac6b0d6846a16e57125e051a7aee.png

image.png.bf23a1497cfa89e9fc3f4c0e2c1c47e7.png

 

I believe starting in 3cy (maybe some 2cy birds as well?) Herring Gulls always have a light iris, so by the time it would be transitioning into adult plumage it's eye would've been light for 1-2 years.

Almost all adult gulls of most large Larus species show mottling/streaking on their heads and necks during winter. It really shouldn't be used to identify species. However, HERG usually are more streaky and Western and Glaucous winged are more mottly.

Olympics are the most common large gulls with dark wingtips in the Metro Vancouver area.

https://ebird.org/barchart?byr=1900&eyr=2021&bmo=1&emo=12&r=CA-BC-GV&spp=x00050,x00051,wesgul,hergul,y00478

 

Eye color can be variable. Although I am not suggesting this as an option, there is a Siberian subspecies that has a dusky iris. Not enough streaking on head could be because of transitioning to breeding plumage, because as PaulK said, gulls up there would already be starting to breed. Didn't mean to offend you, clearly olympic is an option, though somehow I didn't feel as if Olympic was quite right. I'm not sure if we can with absolute certainty identify this gull, though olympic would probably be above herring as an option. I didn't mean to cause any drama, especially as you have been birding for longer.

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19 hours ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Eye color can be variable. Although I am not suggesting this as an option, there is a Siberian subspecies that has a dusky iris. Not enough streaking on head could be because of transitioning to breeding plumage, because as PaulK said, gulls up there would already be starting to breed. Didn't mean to offend you, clearly olympic is an option, though somehow I didn't feel as if Olympic was quite right. I'm not sure if we can with absolute certainty identify this gull, though olympic would probably be above herring as an option. I didn't mean to cause any drama, especially as you have been birding for longer.

The iris in HERGs at this age is always pale. But, the wingtips would always be black in HERG. This bird also shows the bill shape like @Connor Cochrane said. 
This is undoubtedly an Olympic gull.

Now I’m out. 

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2 minutes ago, IKLland said:

The iris in HERGs at this age is always pale. But, the wingtips would always be black in HERG. This bird also shows the bill shape like @Connor Cochrane said. 
This is undoubtedly an Olympic gull.

Now I’m out. 

In full agreement. I’m out next.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, IKLland said:

Now I’m out. 

 

46 minutes ago, Seanbirds said:

I’m out next.

I'm out to. Oh wait, I was never in.:classic_huh:

Edited by Kevin
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6 hours ago, IKLland said:

The iris in HERGs at this age is always pale. But, the wingtips would always be black in HERG. This bird also shows the bill shape like @Connor Cochrane said. 
This is undoubtedly an Olympic gull.

Now I’m out. 

Was just saying. Anyway, I just apologized for any drama I might have caused, no need to bail out as protest against me. I also sent a message to Connor Cochrane to apologize. I'm tired of dealing with whatever backlash you guys are apparently trying to give me.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Was just saying. Anyway, I just apologized for any drama I might have caused, no need to bail out as protest against me. I also sent a message to Connor Cochrane to apologize. I'm tired of dealing with whatever backlash you guys are apparently trying to give me.

Sorry if that sounded cranky. I'm just saying, sorry for whatever troubles I caused, but there's no need to repeat the same thing again. Olympic gull seems to be the general consensus, and I mostly agree with that now.

Edited by Quiscalus quiscula
Grammar mistake
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Was just saying. Anyway, I just apologized for any drama I might have caused, no need to bail out as protest against me. I also sent a message to Connor Cochrane to apologize. I'm tired of dealing with whatever backlash you guys are apparently trying to give me.

 

1 hour ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Sorry if that sounded cranky. I'm just saying, sorry for whatever troubles I caused, but there's no need to repeat the same thing again. Olympic gull seems to be the general consensus, and I mostly agree with that now.

 

1 hour ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

I feel just awful. Not only have I been proved wrong several times on bird forums, despite studying sibley field guides front to back for months, I also create drama. Then everybody seems to justifiably view me as the enemy and leave. Sorry, sorry! Last post. 

I don't think anyone views you as the enemy, and I think what you are viewing as "backlash" is just trying say that they have tried there best convince you of the id and that they want this thread to stay friendly, and not turn into an argument/war, so they are done.

Don't too feel bad about a few misidentifications, we all have some, and I think you have admitted you were wrong when corrected in the past. A friendly discussion is great, but once it starts to be come an out and out argument it needs to stop.

Some times after you've given you reasons for the id you came up with and others don't agree, it's just best to let it go. I've had some like that and I'm sure others have to.

Being willing to admit when your wrong and apologizing if need it leaves me with a certain amount of respect for you.

Keep studying! You will get better. Also one more thing, if you aren't sure of an id you can always and an "I think" or "wait for a conformation", I do that all the time here.

I'm sure that @Aveschapines would have said something, and do a better job but I tried to say what I thought.

Edited by Kevin
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1 hour ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

I feel just awful. Not only have I been proved wrong several times on bird forums, despite studying sibley field guides front to back for months, I also create drama. Then everybody seems to justifiably view me as the enemy and leave. Sorry, sorry! Last post. 

Please stay!

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2 hours ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

I feel just awful. Not only have I been proved wrong several times on bird forums, despite studying sibley field guides front to back for months, I also create drama. Then everybody seems to justifiably view me as the enemy and leave. Sorry, sorry! Last post. 

I agree that spirited discussion about tricky IDs (even when some people are sure...) are great. It probably wasn't particularly helpful for people to start saying that you weren't going to change your mind. I agree that I don't think you created any drama, besides some ID drama, which is great. I hope you did mean that you were done with this thread and not leaving the forums. I also don't think it's necessary or helpful for people to announce that they are not going to comment further; just not posting again is fine. 

It would also be useful for the more established members to remember that newbies don't necessarily know who the experts here are yet, and that insistence is not necessarily always related to correctness 😄 None of these debates should be taken as personal attacks. Not only the original poster but everyone reading along is learning from these discussions. You may be right, and know you're right, but everyone needs to learn for themselves WHY you're right. It doesn't help a less experienced birder to be left feeling that the answer is "because I (expert birder) say so". (And of course we're all wrong once in a while.)

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19 hours ago, Aveschapines said:

I agree that spirited discussion about tricky IDs (even when some people are sure...) are great. It probably wasn't particularly helpful for people to start saying that you weren't going to change your mind. I agree that I don't think you created any drama, besides some ID drama, which is great. I hope you did mean that you were done with this thread and not leaving the forums. I also don't think it's necessary or helpful for people to announce that they are not going to comment further; just not posting again is fine. 

It would also be useful for the more established members to remember that newbies don't necessarily know who the experts here are yet, and that insistence is not necessarily always related to correctness 😄 None of these debates should be taken as personal attacks. Not only the original poster but everyone reading along is learning from these discussions. You may be right, and know you're right, but everyone needs to learn for themselves WHY you're right. It doesn't help a less experienced birder to be left feeling that the answer is "because I (expert birder) say so". (And of course we're all wrong once in a while.)

Thank you Aveschapines. I think I overreacted a bit. And I can be a bit too stubborn sometimes.

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54 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said:

Thank you Aveschapines. I think I overreacted a bit. And I can be a bit too stubborn sometimes.

Don't worry! People sometimes forget that the feedback can be overwhelming for new people too, and everyone can at times not be as helpful as might be ideal. So glad you're back!

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