Is this identifiable?

[lonestranger]

2 hours ago, Tanager 101 said:

I snapped a couple of picture of it

Extra photos might help. 

[millipede]

1 minute ago, lonestranger said:

Extra photos might help. 

yeah, any other angle would help significantly I would think.

Quote

A couple seconds later, the bird returned to the same perch, further pushing that it was a flycatcher.

definitely sounds like flycatcher behavior... returning to the same spot. I've seen lots of other birds do that but, so far no gnatcatchers.

I'm not good with those empids... there are things about this bird that still don't quite look empid to me but at the same time... it makes sense.
What looks like a pale brownish color on the front edge of the wings seems to line up with the pic someone posted of a flycatcher... helping ID go that way, in  my mind at least... ha.
I have a love/hate relationship with mysteries like this.

 

[Clip]

Has anyone looked at the bit of tail showing in the OP? See all that white out to the sides of the tail. This is a Blue-gray Gnatcatcher. There is no doubt in my mind that  @Tanager 101saw a Flycatcher. He may have actually seen several as Cordilleran Flycatchers are quite common in RMNP as well other flycatchers. But what he photographed and posted in this thread is a Blue-gray Gnatcatcher.

[Quiscalus quiscula]

Agree, Dusky/ Hammond's.

[IKLland]

45 minutes ago, Clip said:

Has anyone looked at the bit of tail showing in the OP? See all that white out to the sides of the tail. This is a Blue-gray Gnatcatcher. There is no doubt in my mind that  @Tanager 101saw a Flycatcher. He may have actually seen several as Cordilleran Flycatchers are quite common in RMNP as well other flycatchers. But what he photographed and posted in this thread is a Blue-gray Gnatcatcher.

The edges of the tail on a HAFL can be whitish 

https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/388860571?_gl=1*1nm0cuq*_ga*MTk1NTMxODc5My4xNTkyODczOTY3*_ga_QR4NVXZ8BM*MTY0NTgzMTU0MS40OTkuMC4xNjQ1ODMxNTQxLjYw#_ga=2.122496463.530343446.1645118909-1955318793.1592873967

[IKLland]

48 minutes ago, Clip said:

But what he photographed and posted in this thread is a Blue-gray Gnatcatcher.

Why? The behavior, bill shape, and structure all point to flycatcher. Blue gray gnatcatchers never behave the way @Tanager 101 described. 

[Clip]

8 minutes ago, IKLland said:

The edges of the tail on a HAFL can be whitish 

https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/388860571?_gl=1*1nm0cuq*_ga*MTk1NTMxODc5My4xNTkyODczOTY3*_ga_QR4NVXZ8BM*MTY0NTgzMTU0MS40OTkuMC4xNjQ1ODMxNTQxLjYw#_ga=2.122496463.530343446.1645118909-1955318793.1592873967

But where is the black stripe down the middle of the tail that you can see.

[Clip]

12 minutes ago, IKLland said:

Blue gray gnatcatchers never behave the way @Tanager 101 described

No but they do move around a lot. Like I said he probably did see a flycatcher (likely more than one) they are common there (I know from experience) but he photographed a Blue-gray Gantcatcher. It would be easy to do. As you can lose track of both easily. Almost all Flycatchers have a kind of wavy white eye line that isn't on the OP. It isn't there because it isn't a flycatcher. Instead it has that black eye brow. You can't explain that away because you want it to be flycatcher.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Clip

[IKLland]

5 minutes ago, Clip said:

No but they do move around a lot. Like I said he probably did see a flycatcher (likely more than one) they are common there (I know from experience) but he photographed a Blue-gray Gantcatcher. It would be easy to do. As you can lose track of both easily. Almost all Flycatchers have a kind of wavy white eye line that isn't on the OP. It isn't there because it isn't a flycatcher. Instead it has that black eye brow. You can't explain that away because you want it to be flycatcher.

He saw the bird one a perch, and photographed it. Then the same bird kept flying back to the same perch.  

[Charlie Spencer]

Looking at this BGGN from AAB, I notice it has a longer bill than the original subject bird, a bill that is solid black compared to the original bird's pale bill.  I also notice in all of the BGGN photos on the AAB page, the contrast between the darker head and lighter throat is stronger than on the originally posted bird.

I won't say what the original is, but I don't think it's a Blue-gray.

[Clip]

@Tanager 101 What ever this bird is I hope you had a good time in RMNP. I understand you now have to have a reservation to get in? It is a magically beautiful place. Did you see any ptarmigan?

[Charlie Spencer]

I treasure every moment I spent years ago on an professional IT forum debating 'Why Giant Mecha Robots are Stupid'.  (I was supporting the premise.)

[Aaron]

Behaviour should always trump a photo, as a lot of things can be changed by the camera based on the lighting, motion, and so on. Behaviour I think is one of the most underused ID skills and I find posts on here a lot of the time wouldn’t need to be made (or at least be a lot more narrowed down) if people just paid attention to what the bird was doing (was it pumping it’s tail, returning to the same perch, soaring, etc.) and applied that to what the bird looked like.  My favourite is crow vs raven as yes they look similar, but they’re so easy to tell apart just based on behavioural quirks they have that usually show themselves within a minute or two. 

It seems very unlikely that a flycatcher would suddenly appear in the exact same spot a blue-gray gnatcatcher was a few moments later….

I deal with Hammonds and Dusky, often in the same checklist during the spring/early summer, but I rely on them to be calling. Though, I’ve never found/heard a Hammonds in the open section of habitat (sparse young trees, mostly shrub dominated) where the Duskies usually are and similarly have never found/heard a Dusky in the deep woods where the Hammonds usually are. Though I doubt that’s reliable.

I think you’d need a picture showing the primary projection to be able to tell them apart.

[Clip]

5 hours ago, Aaron said:

a lot of things can be changed by the camera based on the lighting, motion, and so on

 

5 hours ago, Aaron said:

It seems very unlikely that a flycatcher would suddenly appear in the exact same spot a blue-gray gnatcatcher was a few moments later….

The first quote: exactly the small bill on the OP (which also does not fit for flycatcher by the way) is explain by the angle of the camera and the angle of the birds head.

The second quote: Tanager101 admits that this photo was taken 3/4 of a year ago. So he could very well have picked the wrong photo entirely or misremember the events for this photo.

[Clip]

11 hours ago, Charlie Spencer said:

I won't say what the original is, but I don't think it's a Blue-gray

"Won't say" why not?

[aveschapinas]

OK folks! This is NOT the place to discuss and criticize other poster's behavior (please review the rules, especially #1 and #3). I've hidden all posts related to the discussion of a specific member in this thread (although not all of them necessarily break the rules). 

Keep in mind that we never really know why a member chooses to participate in the forums or not; and it's actually none of our business. Anyone here is free not to post or to leave the forum for any reason. Hashing out our opinions as to why someone may not be posting anymore is useless and should never happen in the forums. (It is, of course, always appropriate to privately consider whether your own posts may have contributed to a problem or someone feeling uncomfortable, and use that as a learning experience.)

[Tanager 101]

16 hours ago, Clip said:

@Tanager 101 What ever this bird is I hope you had a good time in RMNP. I understand you now have to have a reservation to get in? It is a magically beautiful place. Did you see any ptarmigan?

Nope, I didn't see any ptarmigans. quite disappointed at that. Hehe The reservation thing they have a day pass you can try to get the day before to get into the park, so we got that twice in the week we were there. Also small note you can get in there without the pass, the one entrance we went though doesn't have people at it until like 8 am. So if you go through before that (which other people were) you can get in.

 

4 hours ago, Clip said:

 

The first quote: exactly the small bill on the OP (which also does not fit for flycatcher by the way) is explain by the angle of the camera and the angle of the birds head.

The second quote: Tanager101 admits that this photo was taken 3/4 of a year ago. So he could very well have picked the wrong photo entirely or misremember the events for this photo.

Second quote: Okay so that is the correct photo. I may have slightly misremembered event for this but I think they should be pretty correct. It did fly and return to the same perch at least twice. I can say that. Someone mention about me saying I had taken multiple photos. I did, but I deleted most of them. This photo I believe was from the second time I saw it. I just found another photo from the first time I saw it. It is not in focus but at a different angle. This other photo to me point even more to flycatcher. Al habitat photo included. The brushy meadow was bigger, and it was seen below a small clump of tree in brush. 

Also one more note. When I saw the bird I did not think it to be an adult bird, but rather an first summer flycatcher.

21 hours ago, lonestranger said:

Extra photos might help. 

See photos

[Clip]

6 minutes ago, Tanager 101 said:

Nope, I didn't see any ptarmigans. quite disappointed at that. Hehe The reservation thing they have a day pass you can try to get the day before to get into the park, so we got that twice in the week we were there. Also small note you can get in there without the pass, the one entrance we went though doesn't have people at it until like 8 am. So if you go through before that (which other people were) you can get in.

 

Good to know this still works! This was what I did but I would also have our Senior National Park Life time pass in case. If you ever go again let me know and I can direct you where to go to see the ptarmigan. Though no promises as the blend in really well.

[IKLland]

1 hour ago, Aveschapines said:

OK folks! This is NOT the place to discuss and criticize other poster's behavior (please review the rules, especially #1 and #3). I've hidden all posts related to the discussion of a specific member in this thread (although not all of them necessarily break the rules). 

Keep in mind that we never really know why a member chooses to participate in the forums or not; and it's actually none of our business. Anyone here is free not to post or to leave the forum for any reason. Hashing out our opinions as to why someone may not be posting anymore is useless and should never happen in the forums. (It is, of course, always appropriate to privately consider whether your own posts may have contributed to a problem or someone feeling uncomfortable, and use that as a learning experience.)

Sorry for anything I’ve done that’s wrong on this thread! I really do mean it. Thanks for all you do here!

[Clip]

17 minutes ago, Tanager 101 said:

Nope, I didn't see any ptarmigans. quite disappointed at that. Hehe The reservation thing they have a day pass you can try to get the day before to get into the park, so we got that twice in the week we were there. Also small note you can get in there without the pass, the one entrance we went though doesn't have people at it until like 8 am. So if you go through before that (which other people were) you can get in.

 

Second quote: Okay so that is the correct photo. I may have slightly misremembered event for this but I think they should be pretty correct. It did fly and return to the same perch at least twice. I can say that. Someone mention about me saying I had taken multiple photos. I did, but I deleted most of them. This photo I believe was from the second time I saw it. I just found another photo from the first time I saw it. It is not in focus but at a different angle. This other photo to me point even more to flycatcher. Al habitat photo included. The brushy meadow was bigger, and it was seen below a small clump of tree in brush. 

Also one more note. When I saw the bird I did not think it to be an adult bird, but rather an first summer flycatcher.

See photos

Yep this one is definitely a flycatcher. I still think the OP is a BGGN.

[Charlie Spencer]

5 hours ago, Clip said:

"Won't say" why not?

Because I don’t know what it is, just what I think it’s not. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Charlie Spencer

[IKLland]

3 minutes ago, Charlie Spencer said:

Because I don’t know what it is, just what I think it’s not. 

Same. I don’t think it’s a gnatcatcher, and it is an empid. I’m just not sure which one.

[Clip]

8 minutes ago, Charlie Spencer said:

Because I don’t know what it is, just what I think it’s not. 

Thanks! "Won't" implied you knew but would not say. So thanks for clarifying.

[Aaron]

5 hours ago, Clip said:

 

The first quote: exactly the small bill on the OP (which also does not fit for flycatcher by the way) is explain by the angle of the camera and the angle of the birds head.

The second quote: Tanager101 admits that this photo was taken 3/4 of a year ago. So he could very well have picked the wrong photo entirely or misremember the events for this photo.

My point was that photos are not always reliable and the be all and end all of bird identification. If there was no photo, and we simply went by the description of the bird and its behaviour it would have been narrowed down to a flycatcher right away. Having said that, the general consensus shifted towards Hammonds/dusky even before the behaviour was mentioned. 
Then if you look at the second photo, that appears to be the exact same bundle of branches in the original photo. 
 

So it seems much safer to ID this as Hammonds/dusky than blue-gray based on the combination of photos, behaviour, and the memory of the encounter.  
That being said, I don’t think it matters too much in the grand scheme of things if a single blue-gray gnatcatcher is misidentified as a dusky/Hammonds or vice versa. Perhaps if it was a rare bird or an endangered species it would matter more to fight for one ID over the other. 

[Jerry Friedman]

Here's a nice photo of a Hammond's that resembles the OP bird, contrary to what I said before.  The color and head shape are more similar than most, and interestingly, it's got that pale edge to the wing on the "wrist".  I still want to know about the black mark over the eye, though.