IKLland Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Today, Orange County , Ca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 It looks like it has a red shield... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 3 minutes ago, Connor Cochrane said: It looks like it has a red shield... Huh, I didn’t think it was big enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 3 minutes ago, IKLland said: Huh, I didn’t think it was big enough. It may be. I don't know that much about the taxa. I know they often have a pale yellow shield instead of red. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, Connor Cochrane said: It may be. I don't know that much about the taxa. I know they often have a pale yellow shield instead of red. Here is somebody else’s photo from the same location from earlier this year. https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/406907601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanager 101 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I think I might lean towards red-shielded 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, Tanager 101 said: I think I might lean towards red-shielded Thanks. But, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanager 101 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, IKLland said: Thanks. But, why? It definitely has the red on the forehead. To me it looks like enough red to be classified as a red-shielded one. I am no expert though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 2 minutes ago, Tanager 101 said: It definitely has the red on the forehead. To me it looks like enough red to be classified as a red-shielded one. I am no expert though. The link I posted above is from the same location. It got confirmed as white shielded. Why does it have a hint of a red shield? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 Here’s a close up comparison between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanager 101 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Just now, IKLland said: The link I posted above is from the same location. It got confirmed as white shielded. Why does it have a hint of a red shield? hmmm I see what your saying. Maybe white-shielded is right.... I will point out that yours does have a bit more red then the other 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 3 minutes ago, Tanager 101 said: hmmm I see what your saying. Maybe white-shielded is right.... I will point out that yours does have a bit more red then the other I'm NOT trying to force this ID, but that could be because of the angle of the head. Unfortunately, this was the only angle I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanager 101 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Just now, IKLland said: I'm NOT trying to force this ID, but that could be because of the angle of the head. Unfortunately, this was the only angle I got. Yep totally get it. You didn't get other photos but did you see it at another angle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 Just now, Tanager 101 said: Yep totally get it. You didn't get other photos but did you see it at another angle? No, this was the only angle I saw. I also got other photos, but of the same or worse angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanager 101 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Just now, IKLland said: No, this was the only angle I saw. I also got other photos, but of the same or worse angle. hmmmm okay. Well I could see this one going either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 @DLecy @AlexHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 From BoTW: In rare cases in the North American population, callus may be completely white or slightly yellowish (Payne and Master 1983, Roberson and Baptista 1988; see Systematics), although the white callus increases in frequency in the Greater Antilles, and predominates from Puerto Rico south to Venezuela (Raffaele et al. 1998). Base of culmen tinged with greenish yellow, inside of mouth and tongue white. To me it seems like if there is any red, it’s a Red-shielded. Additionally, age may be a factor in the intensity and shade of the red callus (shield) 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanager 101 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, Avery said: From BoTW: In rare cases in the North American population, callus may be completely white or slightly yellowish (Payne and Master 1983, Roberson and Baptista 1988; see Systematics), although the white callus increases in frequency in the Greater Antilles, and predominates from Puerto Rico south to Venezuela (Raffaele et al. 1998). Base of culmen tinged with greenish yellow, inside of mouth and tongue white. To me it seems like if there is any red, it’s a Red-shielded. Additionally, age may be a factor in the intensity and shade of the red callus (shield) Okay so it looks like Red-shielded then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, Avery said: To me it seems like if there is any red, it’s a Red-shielded. Additionally, age may be a factor in the intensity and shade of the red callus (shield) Then why do you think the person who saw a white shielded at that location earlier this year had some red on it? And it got confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, IKLland said: Then why do you think the person who saw a white shielded at that location earlier this year had some red on it? And it got confirmed. Not sure about that. Reviewers can be wrong *runs into hiding* Also, I have zero experience with white-shielded birds, so just wanted to give another perspective. I’ll look more in depth when I get back to my dorm in a few minutes 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 It seems that some confirmed white shielded birds on ebird can have a slight area of red above the white. I'm 50/50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Take everything I say here with a grain of salt, as I have zero experience with the "White-shielded" morph Dug more into eBird photos and BoTW. Personally, especially without a full frontal view of the shield, and the fact that the overexposure may be affecting the colors, I wouldn't call this a "White-shielded" bird. It seems that since these two variants are morphs and not subspecies, there is likely to be greater variation, meaning some birds may not be able to be confidently identified. BoTW described the "White-shielded" morph as having a completely white callus, or a yellow tinged shield. In the photos in Macauley, in all the photos with a good view of the callus, there is always the tiniest hint of red, like in the photo that got confirmed. Also, many of the birds have an obvious yellowish wash on the shield. There are also a lot of photos with even more extensive red than I have seen in Red-shielded birds, but I'm guessing as those photos don't have comments regarding the morph decision, that they were just clicked on since they weren't "rare". Additionally, all these photos come from outside the U.S. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Spencer Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 4 minutes ago, Avery said: two variants are morphs and not subspecies Okay, now I can stop feeling ignorant for not having heard of this bird before. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Red-shielded. The sun is shining very brightly on the bill making it seem like a possible candidate for White-shielded. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLecy Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 "White-shielded" Coots are within the range of possibility in CA. Many birds can show a variety of intermediate traits with regards to the shield/callus. That being said, I'm afraid that in your photo, the whites are just too overexposed to make an accurate call. My sense is the same as others on this thread, and that this bird is not a candidate for the "White-shielded" designation in eBird, at least without clearer pictures. However, good for you to keep an eye out on some of these subtle features that many observers overlook. Keep it up. The article written in 1988 by the person (Don Roberson) who identified and photographed the "White-shielded" bird you referenced. https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/nab/v042n05/p01241-p01246.pdf 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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