Hawk IDs

[millipede]

This first one is not mine but is on the birding in Massachusetts FB group and there's a lot of guesses with "I think" and nobody, so far, wanting to jump in with a positive ID. It's an interesting looking bird and appears to not have a tail. Can't tell if that's the angle or what. Facial markings are interesting. I have a rule that if I don't know what it is, it's probably just a red-tailed. HA.  I just looked at my guide to ID a feature. Am I right saying it's the primary coverts? There's a distinct line on the wing that, I wonder if that helps ID the bird at all.
This was in Massachusetts recently according to the FB post.

And then, hopefully an exciting one for me. This is NW Arkansas just yesterday. Driving to church, already running late, I HAD to stop and try. Wish I had my actual camera with me.
We were driving down a road in some open country when I saw this BIG white blob in a tree. By big I mean, this thing REALLY stuck out. I pulled to the side and tried to look through the scope(hopefully will buy a new one soon...)
My son was in the back and could see this massive white thing and asked if it was a snowy owl. Before I got to where I was pulled over, this was SO big and obvious and white, my first thought was a bit of surprise I'd see a great egret sitting in a tree in a field. Odd. But, it was a hawk.
I've personally never seen so much white on a hawk before. It seemed to have an interesting pattern on the back. In the field, my mind went to rough-legged... not that I would have been able to ID that in the field, while perched. In flight maybe. But, people have been seeing one(or more than one) in the county right below us so, that's where my mind was.
Later at home I was looking through images and I FEEL like it could be one of two options.
Ferriginous, which is what I'm hoping for, or Krider's RTHA.
On the one hand, Krider's would still be exciting because, I've never seen a bird like this. On the other hand, it's "just" a red-tailed and not a life bird in that sense.
This bird looked massive, which has me really wanting to push to the Ferriginous or rough-legged side. The sun was bright(ish, how bright can it be at 11:05 AM) so maybe I was not seeing it clearly but, it was VERY white on the front.
I saw no markings on the face and only some color on the top of the head. Was a really cool bird to look at.
I decided that looking through the scope from the van window was not enough so I set up the tripod and TRIED to use my cell phone. Took a bunch of picture just hoping one would come out. This was holding the phone in my hand and TRYING to hold it in the right place, which proved almost impossible.
Only one single picture turned out worth looking at and, I think it is usable for ID. Was surprised...
So... LONG story...  I know. What do you think?

Same image, cropped. The legs LOOK feathered, to me... doesn't look RTHA to me.

I am bummed the head was turned as it is here. I have other pictures but they're all blurry.

[AlexHenry]

Your bird looks like a Krider’s Red-tailed Hawk, which is really cool.

[millipede]

4 hours ago, AlexHenry said:

Your bird looks like a Krider’s Red-tailed Hawk, which is really cool.

I'll wait for some seconds and thirds. 🙂  I kind of wondered... If I hadn't had any thoughts of it being something else in the first place, this wouldn't have any disappointment factor. This is indeed a cool find in general... but, I had my hopes up for a "life" bird. SO much white, and it looked SO big given how far it was from the road. It just HAD to be something other than red-tailed.

Any thoughts on the first bird? Every time I look at it, I want to make it something else. Some parts give a good RTHA feel to me... then, something about the bill looks too "cute" or small. I don't know.
Why can't they all wear name tags? Or be as different as bluejays and cardinals?  HA

 

[IKLland]

29 minutes ago, millipede said:

I'll wait for some seconds and thirds. 🙂  I kind of wondered... If I hadn't had any thoughts of it being something else in the first place, this wouldn't have any disappointment factor. This is indeed a cool find in general... but, I had my hopes up for a "life" bird. SO much white, and it looked SO big given how far it was from the road. It just HAD to be something other than red-tailed.

Any thoughts on the first bird? Every time I look at it, I want to make it something else. Some parts give a good RTHA feel to me... then, something about the bill looks too "cute" or small. I don't know.
Why can't they all wear name tags? Or be as different as bluejays and cardinals?  HA

 

I’d agree with Kroger’s, but I’m no expert. I’d trust @AlexHenry though.

[Jerry Friedman]

26 minutes ago, IKLland said:

I’d agree with Kroger’s, but I’m no expert.

I thought they were going to be lumped with Albertson's.

[Jerry Friedman]

5 hours ago, AlexHenry said:

Your bird looks like a Krider’s Red-tailed Hawk, which is really cool.

The people at the Facebook Raptor ID group say the lightest light-morph Harlan's are very hard to tell from Krider's.  I don't see any rufous on this bird's tail at all, which makes me wonder about Harlan's.  I've been wrong before.

@millipedeAdult Ferruginous would have warm golden or rufous color on the back and wings, and juvenile would be darker there.

 

[The Bird Nuts]

#1 is a Red-tailed.

[AlexHenry]

3 hours ago, Jerry Friedman said:

The people at the Facebook Raptor ID group say the lightest light-morph Harlan's are very hard to tell from Krider's.  I don't see any rufous on this bird's tail at all, which makes me wonder about Harlan's.

 

I don’t have much experience with these subspecies and didn’t consider that. You could definitely be right, I don’t know. I’ll retract what I said before. I knew it was a Red-tail, and one of the interesting different subspecies, but beyond that I don’t know.

Most Rough-legged Hawks have a pretty dark belly or a very dark belly, so that can be ruled out. Agree with what you say about Ferruginous, adults also have dark leggings, and I’d think a juvenile would have a different back pattern.

[millipede]

I just went and posted in the raptor ID group.
Wanted to add in case I didn't say it earlier that the face and forehead where all white. The color started on the top of the head and went down the back.
I REALLY wish I had better pictures.

[millipede]

I find it interesting how people that still need a lot of work on their ID skills like to offer their suggestions.
To be fair, I struggled with that for a short while early on. A little knowledge has you thinking you're good at this all of the sudden. Eventually, I learned I have limitations. LOTS I still need to learn, etc... even where I know a good deal, I know when I'm confident on something and how that's different from a "I think it's a ____"

So far, one person suggested snowy owl. In the field with NO glass on the bird, I had a few kids in the van thinking that same thing. But, it's a hawk.
I don't think anything will ever beat the conversation with the person that saw a 3 foot tall woodpecker... HA

Anyway

A couple other people suggested light red-tailed hawk.
That's when I want to ask if they actually read the comments with my pictures.
I'll be patient though as I'm sure the actual experts will chime in with their morph ideas.
I also send photos to a guy I know who is REALLY good with birds... was in this part of the state but is now a professor(I believe) in somewhere like Ohio.

For my own list, this is "just" a red-tailed so narrowing down the exact type isn't a huge deal at this point. but... if it's an interesting enough bird, I will want to put it on eBird.

[Avery]

I have zero experience with Krider’s, but I will point out that it is perched at the top of the tree, a behavior RLHA does a lot. I have yet to see a RTHA do that. 

[Kevin]

1 hour ago, Avery said:

but I will point out that it is perched at the top of the tree, a behavior RLHA does a lot. I have yet to see a RTHA do that. 

Red-tailed perch in the top of trees all the time around here. Just saying. 

[millipede]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

Red-tailed perch in the top of trees all the time around here. Just saying. 

Thank you crusher of dreams... HA... 
I've been thinking since I read their comment. I feel I see RTHA sit on poles, posts, and often IN trees. Up on the top of thinner branches like that, not so much that I can recall.

I feel like the markings don't fit anything even close to perfectly...  I see a marking or color or lack thereof ruling certain things out but, can they really rule them out?
wrong color for this, wrong color for that... Just looking at pictures of the Harlan's light colored, I feel this bird was too light and and way less color/markings than the "typical" light harlan's. 
Maybe this bird is not identifiable?
eh... lots of thoughts... all leading to frustration. HA

[AlexHenry]

4 hours ago, Avery said:

I have zero experience with Krider’s, but I will point out that it is perched at the top of the tree, a behavior RLHA does a lot. I have yet to see a RTHA do that. 

It’s just too pale on the underparts for Rough-legged. Even a light morph adult male, which has the palest belly of any RLHA plumage, has significantly darker underparts.