KnotLisa Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I saw quite a few Herring Gulls while in Massachusetts on 1/10, but this one was much darker than all the others. I can't think of anything else it could be though. Is that dark of a gray in the range for Herring? Thoughts? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Lesser Black-backed Gull. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birds are cool Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, Quiscalus quiscula said: Lesser Black-backed Gull. Yep. You got there right before me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnotLisa Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Thanks! I am just learning my gulls, but I thought Lesser Black-backed had yellow legs. Is that a reliable field mark? The legs here don't look yellow to me, but rather pink. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birds are cool Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, KnotLisa said: Thanks! I am just learning my gulls, but I thought Lesser Black-backed had yellow legs. Is that a reliable field mark? The legs here don't look yellow to me, but rather pink. Their legs can be pink, yellow or a grayish color depending on age. This is not a reliable field mark. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnotLisa Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 Thanks Birds are cool, for that great tip! I was able to find quite a few pictures and references for first and second year Lesser Black-backed with pink legs and feet, but nothing for older birds. This bird appears close to being an adult, so I guess the pink legs ID point "can" be extended to "some" sub-adult/adult birds too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnotLisa Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 Interestingly, I received a request from the eBird reviewer to change this to Herring Gull! I did (for now) but asked for clarification because I thought the wings might be too dark for Herring (no answer yet). Anyone else here want to chime in on this - Lesser Black-backed vs Herring? The more the merrier!!! Thanks - I'm always ready to learn more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 @DLecy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 19 minutes ago, KnotLisa said: Interestingly, I received a request from the eBird reviewer to change this to Herring Gull! I did (for now) but asked for clarification because I thought the wings might be too dark for Herring (no answer yet). Anyone else here want to chime in on this - Lesser Black-backed vs Herring? The more the merrier!!! Thanks - I'm always ready to learn more. I was under the impression that adult LBBG have yellow legs. I’m not even close to being well versed on gulls, so I didn’t say anything. I would have ID’d this in the field as a Herring, the back does not look dark enough. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/12/2023 at 4:38 PM, Birds are cool said: Their legs can be pink, yellow or a grayish color depending on age. This is not a reliable field mark. It can be in aging the bird, which is basically a necessary step for gull ID 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 This looks fine for Herring to me. The back may look darker because of lighting. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 3 minutes ago, IKLland said: This looks fine for Herring to me. The back may look darker because of lighting. What about bill color though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 minutes ago, Quiscalus quiscula said: What about bill color though? What about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 2 minutes ago, IKLland said: What about it? I see red and black marks, whereas Herring usually has an orangish mark. Edit: Nevermind, I found some examples with red and black markings. Looking at it again does seem better for Herring. Edited January 14 by Quiscalus quiscula 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 1 minute ago, Quiscalus quiscula said: I see red and black marks, whereas Herring usually has an orangish mark. It’s definitely not a completely typical Herring bill, but here are some examples of birds that have black/and or red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Just now, IKLland said: It’s definitely not a completely typical Herring bill, but here are some examples of birds that have black/and or red See my edit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinHood Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 This may be a candidate for Herring x Great Black-backed, known as a "Great Lakes Gull". From memory the back is an intermediate grey; the bill is black, red and flesh coloured; with the legs being a dark pink. The one I came across stood out in a group of Herring Gulls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 6 minutes ago, RobinHood said: This may be a candidate for Herring x Great Black-backed, known as a "Great Lakes Gull". From memory the back is an intermediate grey; the bill is black, red and flesh coloured; with the legs being a dark pink. The one I came across stood out in a group of Herring Gulls. I don't think it looks very hybrid-y to me...seems like a relatively standard Herring that I somehow messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birds are cool Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I retract my previous id of LBBG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 3 hours ago, Quiscalus quiscula said: I don't think it looks very hybrid-y to me... In what way? It does look very similar to the Great Lakes gull that has been on Lake Champlain for a few years that I have yet to track down. However that bird has a cleaner head, though with hybrids I’m not sure that matters too much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnotLisa Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 Thanks EVERYONE - this is a great discussion, with a bunch of good points! Learning so much here. I would say so far that the consensus seems to be for Herring, but I'm intrigued by the possibility of a hybrid. I never even knew about the Great Lakes Gull, but some of the pics I've seen do seem to support the pink legs and darker (as I see it) wings. Not sure if there's anything else in Gull identification (bill, gonydeal angle, mirrors - not even entirely sure I know what that means) that can be used to support either Herring or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLecy Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I am not familiar with the GBBG x HERG taxon, but the mantle does seem oddly dark for a pure Herring, especially in bright daylight. It would be interesting to see what your reviewer says about that specific hybrid with regards to this particular bird. Just for reference... https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/490129-Larus-argentatus---marinus/browse_photos https://media.ebird.org/catalog?taxonCode=x00047&sort=rating_rank_desc 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiscalus quiscula Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 12 hours ago, Avery said: In what way? It does look very similar to the Great Lakes gull that has been on Lake Champlain for a few years that I have yet to track down. However that bird has a cleaner head, though with hybrids I’m not sure that matters too much. Just a feeling... I better not say too much more because of my ignorance in gull identification. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnotLisa Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 Thanks for the addition input and the links - very interesting! I have not had a response from the eBird reviewer yet. I have also reached out to one of the "big names" in gull identification, and a gentleman from Cornell with experience with Great Lakes Gull. I will update here as applicable. Thanks again! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnotLisa Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 Well, I received one response (so far), though nothing from the eBird reviewer. I asked for the gentleman's permission to use his name in a public discussion, but so far have not received an answer on that. So his words will remain anonymous for now. This is what he said: "Not positive it couldn't be a Herring x Lesser, but I think Herring x Great is probably a good bet." Not exactly a 100% endorsement, but leaning in the direction that I am too. Part of the problem with this bird (for me) is that I know of only one feature to base the ID on, and that's the relative darkness of the wings. After looking at LOTS of pics of Herring and Herring x GBBG, I'm seeing that the dark wings point better to the hybrid than to pure Herring. As usual, I could be wrong though. 🙂 I will try reaching out to some other gull people via email to see if I can get more info about this ID, and exactly WHY it is what it is. Also, I understand there's a Facebook Gull ID page (North American Gulls, I think), but since I don't do Facebook, I give permission to anyone who's interested in this gull to copy these pics and post there. Thanks again, and I've included another pic from a little further back. (The only pics I have are from this angle.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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