DaBirb Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I wanted to start this thread, so here we go. I’ll start: bicknell’s thrush and gray cheeked thrush should be one species (gray-cheeked thrush). black capped and Carolina chickadees should also be one species (American Chickadee) Northern flicker should be two species (yellow shafted and red shafted flicker) dark-eyed junco should be separated into five different species (slate-colored junco, Oregon junco, white winged junco, pink sided junco, and gray headed junco. Can you think of anymore? 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Why should those species be lumped? These decisions are made based on genetics stuff, not physical appearance. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaredD Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I believe in Hoary Redpolls like I believe in Santa Claus: https://www.allaboutbirds.org/news/from-many-one-how-many-species-of-redpolls-are-there/#. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Spencer Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 2 hours ago, DaBirb said: I wanted to start this thread, so here we go. I’ll start: bicknell’s thrush and gray cheeked thrush should be one species (gray-cheeked thrush). black capped and Carolina chickadees should also be one species (American Chickadee) Northern flicker should be two species (yellow shafted and red shafted flicker) dark-eyed junco should be separated into five different species (slate-colored junco, Oregon junco, white winged junco, pink sided junco, and gray headed junco. Can you think of anymore? Scientific justification, please. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipperatl Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 38 minutes ago, JaredD said: I believe in Hoary Redpolls like I believe in Santa Claus: https://www.allaboutbirds.org/news/from-many-one-how-many-species-of-redpolls-are-there/#. Don’t take them away from me. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peromyscus Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, chipperatl said: Don’t take them away from me. Me too! I've already lost Thayer's Gull. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birding Boy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Anybody who has a problem with Hoary Redpoll being a species, has a problem with me 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birding Boy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, IKLland said: Why should those species be lumped? These decisions are made based on genetics stuff, not physical appearance. And behavioral and vocal differences too of course! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avery Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) The only one’s I really think need to be split are YRWA subspecies. The three look and sound very different. Flickers would be my second in line. There’s only a very small hybridization zone. Honestly, I’m fine with whatever the ornithologists decide. I don’t know enough about it, and I still document all the variation I see anyway. Whether it’s elevated to a species or lumped, it doesn’t really matter. But I do have a problem with wanting to lump Bicknell’s and Gray-cheeked. We need Bicknell’s to be its own species so it gets the conservational help it deserves. I’ve seen and been in how little habitat they have left. I know I’m biased on that one though. I’m all for giving a subspecies or regional varient a higher designation if it means it gets more conservational attention. Edited February 4 by Avery 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birding Boy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Birds I think should be split for one reason or another: Steller's Jay into two or more species. I'll try and find the good paper I read on that. The White-breasted Nuthatches of course. Bring back Thayer's and Iceland Gulls back to species status. It's just crazy to me how different a west coast thayeri individual is from let's say a glaucoides breeding in western Europe. Though, I'm not familiar with the extent of genetic variation. Western & Eastern Willets Western & Eastern Warbling Vireos I'll stick to those for now 😁 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 16 hours ago, Birding Boy said: Birds I think should be split for one reason or another: Steller's Jay into two or more species. I'll try and find the good paper I read on that. The White-breasted Nuthatches of course. Bring back Thayer's and Iceland Gulls back to species status. It's just crazy to me how different a west coast thayeri individual is from let's say a glaucoides breeding in western Europe. Though, I'm not familiar with the extent of genetic variation. Western & Eastern Willets Western & Eastern Warbling Vireos I'll stick to those for now 😁 Yeah I've heard there's a pretty good chance that STJA get split this AOU cycle. The other two main splits I can think of is House Wren (it's crazy it isn't split yet) and Fox Sparrow. I think a Junco split will happen in the future but not 5-ways. I think Gray-headed/Red-backed birds will be the first to get split off. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Would like to see something done about the Tufted Titmouse, Black-crested Titmouse, and Tufted x Black-crested Titmouse (hybrid) mess. Don't know that un-spliting them is the answer, while clearly I haven't been testing genetics, I can tell there is considerable differences other than just looks. So I don't have a problem with them being two species, but this hybrid range in the middle of them is a real mess. Where does it start and stop? As you go east they start looking more and more like Tufted, and going west like Black-crested, but at what point do decide you are seeing "pure" birds? Also, for some reason, there is very little information about the hybrid range, and as a result most people report them as pure birds, which is incredibly annoying. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Everyone probably doesn't know, so I should explain. The cross over range in TUTI, and BCTI, doesn't just have a few hybrids. Every bird is a "hybrid", generation, after generation, after generation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Another one two that I haven't been mentioned yet are Bell's Vireo and Swainson's Thrush. I think that the vast majority of these birds should be split but the AOU is extremely cautious and slow with splitting (the European's are the opposite, they split everything it seems). There's hundreds of splits waiting to happen in south and central America that the AOU won't consider till there's multiple genetic studies. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLecy Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Connor Cochrane said: (the European's are the opposite, they split everything it seems). There's hundreds of splits waiting to happen in south and central America that the AOU won't consider till there's multiple genetic studies. It’s the classification and nomenclature committees such as the NACC and the SACC that make these decisions. Both of which are part of the AOS. Can you drop a reference in here for this statement? I’m curious. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 6 minutes ago, DLecy said: It’s the classification and nomenclature committees such as the NACC and the SACC that make these decisions. Both of which are part of the AOS. Can you drop a reference in here for this statement? I’m curious. Thanks. Sorry, brain fart there. Which statement in particular? I think it’s pretty well known that European species are pretty split. The European countries split a lot of American species as well on their lists. I don’t know as much about central situation but thats what I’ve heard with talking to people who have a lot more experience down there than me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Spencer Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 10 hours ago, Kevin said: Would like to see something done about the Tufted Titmouse, Black-crested Titmouse, and Tufted x Black-crested Titmouse (hybrid) mess. Don't know that un-spliting them is the answer, while clearly I haven't been testing genetics, I can tell there is considerable differences other than just looks. So I don't have a problem with them being two species, but this hybrid range in the middle of them is a real mess. Where does it start and stop? As you go east they start looking more and more like Tufted, and going west like Black-crested, but at what point do decide you are seeing "pure" birds? Also, for some reason, there is very little information about the hybrid range, and as a result most people report them as pure birds, which is incredibly annoying. I wasn't even aware of hybrids when I was in the Hill Country several years ago, and I wasn't taking photos back then. I have Black-cresteds on one checklist, lifers and only sightings. I really should review those; I understand that's Ground Zero for cross-breeding. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanbirds Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/3/2023 at 5:26 PM, chipperatl said: Don’t take them away from me. Right? I always love seeing species split but when somebody talks about lumping them I throw a fit. 😂 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birding Boy Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 On 2/4/2023 at 5:01 PM, Connor Cochrane said: Yeah I've heard there's a pretty good chance that STJA get split this AOU cycle. The other two main splits I can think of is House Wren (it's crazy it isn't split yet) and Fox Sparrow. I think a Junco split will happen in the future but not 5-ways. I think Gray-headed/Red-backed birds will be the first to get split off. How could I forget our Fox Sparrows and Juncos?! The different Fox Sparrow subspecies groups are quite distinct as I'm sure you know, comparing their vocalizations even the flight calls are discernably different. I'm also curious about the Savannah Sparrow subspecies. Some of those subspecies are quite different, at least considering visual characteristics. Wonder if they'll ever be split (Again) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Cochrane Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 7 minutes ago, Birding Boy said: How could I forget our Fox Sparrows and Juncos?! The different Fox Sparrow subspecies groups are quite distinct as I'm sure you know, comparing their vocalizations even the flight calls are discernably different. I'm also curious about the Savannah Sparrow subspecies. Some of those subspecies are quite different, at least considering visual characteristics. Wonder if they'll ever be split (Again) Yeah, Large-billed Savannah will probably be split in the next few years. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKLland Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 26 minutes ago, Connor Cochrane said: Yeah, Large-billed Savannah will probably be split in the next few years. That would give me another lifer! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 It would be nice to finally give Canada a true endemic by splitting off the Haida Gwaii subspecies of NSWO. There’s actually a few subspecies of birds that are only found on those islands that probably could reach full species status at some point. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBirb Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 Tropical and Couch’s Kingbird into one species, anyone? new name: Olive-backed Kingbird. Here are some more: TONS of Empidonax species should be combined. Eastern and Western Wood-Pewee Purple and Cuban Martin Leconte’s, Nelson’s and Saltmarsh Sparrows Louisiana and Northern Waterthrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBirb Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 Hey Birding Boy, separating the Willets, White breasted Nuthatches, warbling vireos and Stellers Jays would make identification a WHOLE lot harder for me, honestly. The Stellers Jays do have separating marks, but it is still quite hard. But I do agree with your fox sparrow separation! I never noticed how distinct the subspecies were… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Fingers Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I don’t see why birds should be combined just because they look very similar. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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