3 Tyrant Flycatchers in 5 minutes???

[Jim W]

These pictures were taken at Maxwell National Wildlife Refuge in New Mexico on July 12, 2018.  The NWR wildlife list shows Western Kingbird, Cassin's Kingbird and Say's Phoebe as "common".

The timestamps of these three sets of pictures are within 5 minutes.  At first, I assumed they were all the same bird and called it a Western Kingbird.  However, as I thought about it more, I was driving on the auto-tour route.  It is very possible I had moved a few hundred yards between birds 1 and 2 and a quarter mile between birds 2 and 3.   My current suspicion is I got pictures of three different, but similar, species in 5 minutes.  However, this seems pretty unlikely.  Also, as the field marks are subjective (e.g. “more contrast”, “lighter gray”), I’m looking for some help from folks with more experience.  I’ve attached two pictures of each bird.

Thanks in advance!!

Bird 1 (in a tree):

I think it is a Western Kingbird. 

• ocular stripe contrasts with lighter grey head
• pale grayish upper breast
• not a lot of contrast between head and white chin
• coverts plain, not much scalloping
• Merlin says Western Kingbird with Cassin’s Kingbird as the first alternate.

 

Bird 2 (on a wire):

I am leaning towards a Cassin’s Kingbird.

• head and chest darker grey
• high contrast white chin
• I don’t see any white on the tip of the tail.  Then again, I don’t see a Western’s white outer tail feathers.  I think shadows on the tail are obscuring either field mark.
• Merlin says it’s a Cassin’s Kingbird with Western Kingbird as the first alternate.

 

Bird 3 (on a chimney):

Unfortunately, this bird was backlit.  I’ve brightened the pictures quite a bit and turned up saturation.  This definitely looks like a different bird to me.  I think it may be a Say’s Phoebe.

• head looks a little brownish.

• chin and throat look more gray than white

• belly and undertail coverts show a hint of cinnamon.

• Merlin says it is a Say’s Phoebe with a bunch of oddballs as alternatives (swallows, thrashers, etc.)

Bird 1, Pic 1:

Bird 1, Pic 2:

 

Bird 2, Pic 1:

Bird 2, Pic 2:

 

Bird 3, Pic 1:

Bird 3, Pic 2:

 

[akiley]

The first two are correct. I'm thinking Vermilion Flycatcher for the last one.

[Jim W]

24 minutes ago, akiley said:

The first two are correct. I'm thinking Vermilion Flycatcher for the last one.

Ha!  You've thrown a bit of a monkey-wrench in with Vermilion Flycatcher.  I didn't even look at that species because the Maxwell NWR bird list shows it as accidental in spring and never seen for summer.  But looking at pictures of them, I see why you've brought  it up.  The non-uniform coloring on the belly seems better for Vermilion Flycatcher than Say's Phoebe.

I looked in eBird.  There is one sighting (ever) for Maxwell NWR.  Interestingly enough, it was just last summer - June 3, 2018.  I tend take single sightings with a big grain of salt, but this entry includes an outstanding photo.  Is it possible this bird decided to hang around until July?  

[millipede]

I can't help a whole lot with ID's here other than looking in a field guide and saying something like "looks good to me" or something.

But on the possible vermilion flycatcher, I can see it when I look in the guide but what I really wanted to add was, you just never know with them.

I live in the Northwest corner of Arkansas... the most NW county, we live about 15 minutes from OK and less than an hour from MO...  and we get those up here once in a while.
in 2017 there was one in the winter I think(I'd have to double check) that someone saw, not fully colored but male. Then last Spring(like March or something) there was a beautiful male at a lake that I bird often. It stuck around for days and people came from all over to chase it.

Get some confirmation from people here but don't let timing worry you with this bird ?

[Jim W]

I spent some time this morning going through various resources to try to determine if bird 3 is a Vermilion Flycatcher or a Say's Phoebe.  I see two issues with Vermilion FC:

• As noted above, there is a question of range.  Interestingly, while both Cornell online resources (birdsna and Allaboutbirds) show the breeding range further south, my Nat Geo hardback also shows some isolated breeding areas further north in the area of Maxwell.    The credible eBird sighting 6 weeks earlier (noted above) shows they can be found at Maxwell.
• Vermilion FC has a pale supercilium and forehead.  It is apparent in many pictures on Macaulay Library.  However, there are also many pictures where the head looks brown with no visible pale spots.  So I don't think the lack of pale spots on this bird is a showstopper either.

The underparts seem to point to Vermilion FC.  The wash of color is not uniform like a Say's Phoebe.   More important, there are dark spots or streaks which Say's Phoebe does not show.  I considered that the darker spots could be caused by molting, but according to birdsna, Say's Phoebes don't molt until August.

Bottom line:  The pictures are poor so I'll never be sure.  However, I'm going to file them as "possible Vermilion Flycatcher" unless some folks come in with dissenting opinions. Thanks for the heads up  @akiley

Edited January 27, 2019 by Jim W

[blackburnian]

That looks like a Say’s Phoebe to me. 

[birdbrain22]

Western Kingbird,  Cassin's Kingbird, Say's Phoebe.

 

[Melierax]

Having seen both female VEFL and SAPH, agreed with SAPH due to lack of eye stripe and strong yellowish underparts. Shape is much better for SAPH as well.

[Jim W]

Thanks everyone!  I appreciate all the input on a tough picture.  I am more comfortable landing on Say's Phoebe because I got some better pictures of a Say's the next day (about 400 miles away).  This would be my only Vermilion FC and I'd rather have a good picture to hang my hat on.  

Either way, I did hit a Tyrant Flycatcher trifecta in 5 minutes!   Since I'm new at this and live on the east coast, all three were lifers at the time ?.

[TooFly]

Funny thing. I ran both photos through photo sleuth to see what it thinks...99% on photo 1 it’s a Say’s Phoebe....99% on photo 2 that it’s a Vermillion!!!!

 

How’s that for confirmation?!?!? ???‍♂️??

[millipede]

5 minutes ago, TooFly said:

Funny thing. I ran both photos through photo sleuth to see what it thinks...99% on photo 1 it’s a Say’s Phoebe....99% on photo 2 that it’s a Vermillion!!!!

 

How’s that for confirmation?!?!? ???‍♂️??

That's just awesome. ?  

[Jim W]

7 minutes ago, TooFly said:

Funny thing. I ran both photos through photo sleuth to see what it thinks...99% on photo 1 it’s a Say’s Phoebe....99% on photo 2 that it’s a Vermillion!!!!

 

How’s that for confirmation?!?!? ???‍♂️??

?  I think that's photo sleuth's way of saying "Jim next time get a picture of the bird with the sun at your back!"

[akiley]

24 minutes ago, TooFly said:

Funny thing. I ran both photos through photo sleuth to see what it thinks...99% on photo 1 it’s a Say’s Phoebe....99% on photo 2 that it’s a Vermillion!!!!

 

How’s that for confirmation?!?!? ???‍♂️??

That's not the first time I've heard of this. This is just one of the reasons why I hate programs like iBird and Merlin, and think they're bad for birding as a whole. I won't get into my rant again...

Edited January 28, 2019 by akiley

[millipede]

2 minutes ago, akiley said:

That's not the first time I've heard of this. This is just one of the reasons why I hate programs like iBird and Merlin, and think they're bad for birding as a whole. I won't get into my rant again...

I wish this forum had some more general areas for discussion as I think this would be something good to write on(from a non-ranting strategy, of course) :)
This reminds me(please pardon this comparison) of people being led astray in many places... politics, and religion, and more.  For instance, people that go to church might hear something and assume it's true without checking what the bible says. (again, please pardon the comparison)  Don't get me started on news headlines and how quickly people read, react, and never actually learn the truth... It's ALWAYS wise to double check everything. :) 
I think these apps can be helpful but it would always be good to then check out a guide or other sources to confirm on your own. I mean, in all honesty you can't even trust every response you'll get here as people make these mistakes as well. So whether it's an app or a response here, it's always good to double check and get second opinions. :)

I think IF used wisely these tools can help some people learn...  in the meantime, I'll say again, this is just funny to me. :)
It's funny when people see different things sometimes as well... but 99% two different birds... I just have to laugh.

[TooFly]

I like the app. Sometimes when I’m confused/stumped it points me in the right direction. Sometimes it’s not the #1 choice. But it “usually” gets the correct bird in the top three, and almost always gets me pointed in the right direction by at the very least putting up a similar bird/species.

[Charlie Spencer]

4 minutes ago, millipede said:

This reminds me(please pardon this comparison) of people being led astray in many places... politics, and religion, and more.  For instance, people that go to church might hear something and assume it's true without checking what the bible says. (again, please pardon the comparison)  Don't get me started on news headlines and how quickly people read, react, and never actually learn the truth... It's ALWAYS wise to double check everything. ?

That's why I encourage people to always post the source of headlines, statistics, etc, and to always ask for the source when others post the same.  And no, your friends' Twitter and Facebook pages aren't sources.

I'm thoroughly offended by your religious references, by the way  

[akiley]

54 minutes ago, millipede said:

I wish this forum had some more general areas for discussion as I think this would be something good to write on(from a non-ranting strategy, of course) ?
This reminds me(please pardon this comparison) of people being led astray in many places... politics, and religion, and more.  For instance, people that go to church might hear something and assume it's true without checking what the bible says. (again, please pardon the comparison)  Don't get me started on news headlines and how quickly people read, react, and never actually learn the truth... It's ALWAYS wise to double check everything. ?
I think these apps can be helpful but it would always be good to then check out a guide or other sources to confirm on your own. I mean, in all honesty you can't even trust every response you'll get here as people make these mistakes as well. So whether it's an app or a response here, it's always good to double check and get second opinions. ?

I think IF used wisely these tools can help some people learn...  in the meantime, I'll say again, this is just funny to me. ?
It's funny when people see different things sometimes as well... but 99% two different birds... I just have to laugh.

Rant was the wrong word. I actually did give detailed comments on why I believe it’s bad for learning. In short, it a) Is wrong more often that it should be, and b) Provides nothing from a learning aspect. It’s like getting the answers for a school assignment without actually doing and learning or work. Field guides are the way to go to teach the observed about field marks, variation in age/sex, aging, subspecies, and gaining overall experience. iBird and Merlin just spit out an answer that there’s no reasoning why or proof that it’s correct. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by akiley

[Jim W]

I think the value of the tools depends on how you use them. I run almost every picture I am investigating through Merlin for two reasons.  1) it is a data point like any other and 2) more important, it gives a noob like me a starting point, including several alternatives.  I like seeing the alternatives because it helps keep me from being tunnel visioned.  I get the same benefit from Allaboutbirds and birdsna "similar species" lists (which I look at every time).  But I never, never take Merlin's pick as gospel.  As Akiley noted, it is incorrect a lot although it does usually get the correct bird somewhere in the list of alternatives.  I research every bird in birdsna and Allaboutbirds and often in one of several hardback books.  Since I am a noob, I'm probably spending 30-60 minutes per bird (which is why I am still going through pictures from my mega-trip last summer ?).

[TooFly]

22 hours ago, Jim W said:

I think the value of the tools depends on how you use them. I run almost every picture I am investigating through Merlin for two reasons.  1) it is a data point like any other and 2) more important, it gives a noob like me a starting point, including several alternatives.  I like seeing the alternatives because it helps keep me from being tunnel visioned.  I get the same benefit from Allaboutbirds and birdsna "similar species" lists (which I look at every time).  But I never, never take Merlin's pick as gospel.  As Akiley noted, it is incorrect a lot although it does usually get the correct bird somewhere in the list of alternatives.  I research every bird in birdsna and Allaboutbirds and often in one of several hardback books.  Since I am a noob, I'm probably spending 30-60 minutes per bird (which is why I am still going through pictures from my mega-trip last summer ?).

I only use it occasionally...when I’m stuck on someone’s bird here ?. But I’m worried as it gets better places like whatbird will become obsolete...and I believe these sights are where people can really learn! I mean I’m getting so good at Identifying other people’s birds when i go on trips to places you all live I don’t even need a field guide!!! ?????‍♂️

[Charlie Spencer]

I might consider one of these tools but they seem inconvenient for me to use.  I take all my pictures with a 'real' camera, not a phone.  None of these ID apps exists for Windows computers, just apps for Apple / Android phones and tablets.  I'm not going to transfer the photos from the camera to my computer, then from the computer to my phone or tablet, to get an ID.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Charlie Spencer

[Jim W]

1 hour ago, Charlie Spencer said:

I might consider one of these tools but they seem inconvenient for me to use.  I take all my pictures with a 'real' camera, not a phone.  None of these ID apps exists for Windows computers, just apps for Apple / Android phones and tablets.  I'm not going to transfer the photos from the camera to my computer, then from the computer to my phone or tablet, to get an ID.

Yeah, I wish it was on Windows as well.  All of the pics I'm going to keep go to my PC where they automatically get backed up to cloud.  My phone can directly access the cloud drive.  Since they are date sorted on the cloud, it is easy to find the picture I want and download a copy to my phone.  An extra step for sure, but not too painful.