Turkey Vultures difference

[Bitzgirl7]

Someone submitted a Turkey Vulture (Northern) Cathartes aura aura/septentrionalis in our region of eastern Ontario which is rife with them. It was listed as a rare bird species for our area.

What would be the difference between a Cathartes aura aura/septentrionalis and Cathartes aura septentrionalis?

My pic that I took yesterday, what category would it fall under?

 

[Charlie Spencer]

27 minutes ago, Bitzgirl7 said:

Someone submitted a Turkey Vulture (Northern) Cathartes aura aura/septentrionalis in our region of eastern Ontario which is rife with them. It was listed as a rare bird species for our area.

I can't answer your subspecies questions, but I'm confused about where or how this was submitted.  I went to eBird and started a dummy submission for Ontario for yesterday.  (I didn't complete or submit it).  I saw only one Turkey Vulture option, with no subspecies, even after I enabled subspecies and rarities.  Turkey Vulture was not flagged as 'Rare'.  Black Vulture was, but I had to enable rarities before I could see or select it.

  AAB doesn't break subspecies down for TUVU.  NatGeo's 'Complete Birds of N.A' says the subspecies differences are "...minor ... in size and overall tone...".  This gives me the impression they aren't discernible in the field, and leaves me wondering how the submitter determined the sub.

I'd say your photo is of a Turkey Vulture, and a young one at that.  I say TUVU because you can clearly see the 'open nostrils' that pass through top of the bill.  I say 'young' because the head is hasn't turned red yet.  I can't give you a subspecies.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Charlie Spencer

[Bitzgirl7]

Here is what we received in our  bird alert.

*** Species Summary:

- Snow Goose (1 report)
- Turkey Vulture (Northern) (1 report)
- Nelson's Sparrow (1 report)

---------------------------------------------
Thank you for subscribing to the <daily> Renfrew County Rare Bird Alert.The report below shows observations of rare birds in Renfrew County.  View or unsubscribe to this alert at https://ebird.org/alert/summary?sid=SN38164
NOTE: all sightings are UNCONFIRMED unless indicated

Snow Goose (Anser caerulescens) (1)
- Reported Oct 05, 2019 12:33 by Christian Renault
- 25 Greatview Trail, Whitewater Region CA-ON (45,7783,-76,9366), Renfrew, Ontario
- Map: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=p&z=13&q=45.778307,-76.936643&ll=45.778307,-76.936643
- Checklist: https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S60379833
- Comments: "White phase, adult; seen in flight"

Turkey Vulture (Northern) (Cathartes aura aura/septentrionalis) (3)
- Reported Oct 05, 2019 10:11 by BJ Turner
- 1905 Orange Road, Chalk River, Ontario, CA (45.954, -77.494), Renfrew, Ontario
- Map: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=p&z=13&q=45.9540707,-77.4935547&ll=45.9540707,-77.4935547
- Checklist: https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S60376902
- Comments: "Three turkey cultures circling above the Petawawa river"

Nelson's Sparrow (Ammospiza nelsoni) (1)
- Reported Oct 05, 2019 12:33 by Christian Renault
- 25 Greatview Trail, Whitewater Region CA-ON (45,7783,-76,9366), Renfrew, Ontario
- Map: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=p&z=13&q=45.778307,-76.936643&ll=45.778307,-76.936643
- Checklist: https://ebird.org/view/checklist/S60379833
 

[Charlie Spencer]

I'm still puzzled, mostly by how the observer determined the subspecies of a TUVU on the wing.  I also don't know how anyone reacting to this report would separate other TUVU subs in the vicinity from the ones they were chasing.

As an aside, the checklist shows 5 fairly common species, 18 individual birds, over nearly NINE hours???  That observer is either really dedicated or fumble-fingered.  I admit I'd give up birding if I only saw one bird every half hour.  It's probably less than that often, since the six geese and four turkeys were likely seen in flocks.

Bizarre.

[Charlie Spencer]

I don't see this submission withstanding review, at least not without more support than "- Comments: "Three turkey vultures circling above the Petawawa river".  That's not enough to justify a rare subspecies, or even to differentiate between common ones.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Charlie Spencer

[Jerry Friedman]

According to HBW, aura in the west and septentrionalis in the east (including eastern Ontario) are the North American subspecies.  The other two subspecies occur from Costa Rica and Trinidad south.  That seems to be why "Northern" covers aura and septentrionalis.  The submitter may have just based the subspecies ID on range, which eBird doesn't want you to do.  Or, though I'm having a little trouble telling, it seems you might be able to separate the southern subspecies in the field based on their light-colored head markings.  Either way, saying Canadian birds belong to one of the North American subspecies doesn't seem very useful.

I do like "turkey cultures", though.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Jerry Friedman

[RobinHood]

I got sucked into the topic. I notice quite a lot of TUVU (North) postings for Ontario on eBird but nothing more recent than a couple of years ago.

I also noticed some of them were local and posted by @egosnell2002. He may help clarify, or not. I looked at images for both sub-species to compare and struggled to see a difference.

[akiley]

Turkey Vulture (Northern) is the expected subspecies group. The birder preferred to add it. Jerry, actually eBird policy is that it's fine to use subspecies that are expected. There's no requirement to actually meticulously identify the subspecies to use it. Some reviewers disagree personally, but eBird generally likes subspecies. I personally work on this topic with those at the head of eBird. Using subspecies is helpful to help fill in range maps, and especially if you upload media- then media will be pre-categorized by form, which makes it much earlier for analysis/research. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by akiley

[akiley]

However, there are some subspecies that shouldn't ever be assumed by range- essentially the ones where multiple forms occur in a region, or where integrades confuse things- such as Peregrine Falcon, White-crowned Sparrow, Solitary Sandpiper, Yellow-rumped Warbler in overlap zones, etc.

[akiley]

33 minutes ago, RobinHood said:

I got sucked into the topic. I notice quite a lot of TUVU (North) postings for Ontario on eBird but nothing more recent than a couple of years ago.

I also noticed some of them were local and posted by @egosnell2002. He may help clarify, or not. I looked at images for both sub-species to compare and struggled to see a difference.

That's because the subspecies group either is or was on the filter. Therefore if TUVU (Northern) is on the expected list, people can use it without problem. Maybe it was removed from the filter if there are few recent reports.

Edited October 6, 2019 by akiley

[RobinHood]

2 minutes ago, akiley said:

That's because the subspecies group either is or was on the filter. Therefore if TUVU (Northern) is on the expected list, people can use it without problem. Maybe it was removed from the filter if there are few recent reports.

I looked more closely at the postings and it seems that it was a choice (as no additional description was provided for Northern with the posting for verification) until around 2016 when the postings dried up, just a few for Northern afterwards.

PS to OP, very nice photo.

[Jerry Friedman]

1 hour ago, akiley said:

Turkey Vulture (Northern) is the expected subspecies group. The birder preferred to add it. Jerry, actually eBird policy is that it's fine to use subspecies that are expected. There's no requirement to actually meticulously identify the subspecies to use it. Some reviewers disagree personally, but eBird generally likes subspecies. I personally work on this topic with those at the head of eBird. Using subspecies is helpful to help fill in range maps, and especially if you upload media- then media will be pre-categorized by form, which makes it much earlier for analysis/research. 

Thanks for the correction.  I'm surprised that that's the policy, though.  Don't you get misidentifications, especially outside the breeding season, which would throw off that analysis and research?

[akiley]

1 hour ago, Jerry Friedman said:

Thanks for the correction.  I'm surprised that that's the policy, though.  Don't you get misidentifications, especially outside the breeding season, which would throw off that analysis and research?

My misidentifications do you mean things like Yellow-rumped Myrtle and Audubons's and Eastern/Western Palm? Caution is encouraged, especially when multiple forms occur in the area. What I'm saying is that eBird has no problem with entering Turkey Vulture (Northern) in Ontario, or Downy Woodpecker (Eastern) in New York.

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by akiley

[Charlie Spencer]

22 minutes ago, akiley said:

My misidentifications do you mean things like Yellow-rumped Myrtle and Audubons's and Eastern/Western Palm? Caution is encouraged, especially when multiple forms occur in the area. What I'm saying is that eBird has no problem with entering Turkey Vulture (Northern) in Ontario, or Downy Woodpecker (Eastern) in New York.

 

That's good to know, but it still leaves me wondering why the filter would flag the expected subspecies as 'Rare'.  The time of year?

[RobinHood]

48 minutes ago, Charlie Spencer said:

The time of year?

I wondered about this initially and checked but as you would expect from the previous comments here there was no difference between the species, both going well into November.

I also did the same as you and did a trial posting and you have to go into the additional species to find Northern and it immediately goes to "rare", presumably just because it is not on the standard list. A great way for eBird posters to get on the "rare" lists routinely, if you are looking for quick fame. I am still getting over the shock from last year, early days for me in the world of eBird, when my posting for a Yellow-rumped on November 1 went into "rare" (one day over the expected time frame).

On a positive note this has got me more interested in the humble Turkey Vulture. Before the other thread appeared I did not even know the juvenal/juvenile (adjective/noun?) had a black head.

Still no Whatbird Forum, just the main site, on my Android devices - is it just me?

[Charlie Spencer]

1 hour ago, RobinHood said:

Still no Whatbird Forum, just the main site, on my Android devices - is it just me?

Not just you.  I get an error trying to open it on my Samsung Galaxy tablet.

[HamRHead]

It's working on my phone- Galaxy S7.

[akiley]

2 hours ago, Charlie Spencer said:

That's good to know, but it still leaves me wondering why the filter would flag the expected subspecies as 'Rare'.  The time of year?

Good question. eBird has a lot of subspecies options available. A ton of them. There are a set few that are supposed to be available on all filters. This list includes ones that are general more easily field idetifiable or clearly distinct generically. This doesn't include all of them. So there are still cases when people can add subspecies to lists that are expected, but get flagged, such as here. 

The problem has a whole new level of confusion when reviewers don't have the recommended forms on the filters. 

It's a complicated issue, but to sum it up, Turkey Vulture (Northern) is expected and perfectly fine to use of you wish. There's no requirement to use subspecies obviously, as most birders don't. That's perfectly fine.

 

[Jerry Friedman]

3 hours ago, akiley said:

My misidentifications do you mean things like Yellow-rumped Myrtle and Audubons's and Eastern/Western Palm? Caution is encouraged, especially when multiple forms occur in the area. What I'm saying is that eBird has no problem with entering Turkey Vulture (Northern) in Ontario, or Downy Woodpecker (Eastern) in New York.

 

I mean things that would cause problems (maybe minor ones) with what you mentioned: the research and analysis based on media.  Suppose a researcher wants to use eBird photos to study the plumage of White-breasted Nuthatches of the Interior West group.  And suppose I get a cute picture of a White-breasted Nuthatch here in north-central New Mexico and upload it to a record that I casually label Interior West because that's the expected subspecies here and the others haven't been recorded on eBird for this area, so I thought I was safe.  But suppose it's actually a vagrant Eastern bird that I failed to notice.  If the researcher uses my photo in the study, they'll have to waste time rejecting my sighting, or worse, they'll be misled.  On the other hand, if I don't label records to subspecies unless I've identified them definitively, the researcher will have clean data.  Or is this not worth worrying about?

[akiley]

3 hours ago, Jerry Friedman said:

I mean things that would cause problems (maybe minor ones) with what you mentioned: the research and analysis based on media.  Suppose a researcher wants to use eBird photos to study the plumage of White-breasted Nuthatches of the Interior West group.  And suppose I get a cute picture of a White-breasted Nuthatch here in north-central New Mexico and upload it to a record that I casually label Interior West because that's the expected subspecies here and the others haven't been recorded on eBird for this area, so I thought I was safe.  But suppose it's actually a vagrant Eastern bird that I failed to notice.  If the researcher uses my photo in the study, they'll have to waste time rejecting my sighting, or worse, they'll be misled.  On the other hand, if I don't label records to subspecies unless I've identified them definitively, the researcher will have clean data.  Or is this not worth worrying about?

Good point. If you're near an overlap range of subspecies (which there are many cases of in the Rockies/middle of the country, then subspecies should't be assumed unless carefully identified. And the filters should be set to promote that- by having multiple forms available, even if one is set as rare, to make it known that multiple forms could occur. If that mistake you describe happens, it's really no different from a species level ID. Someone doing a study based on eBird data from Cornell should be able to notice errors, in theory.

In most cases of expected subspecies, like Downy Woodpecker (Eastern) here in Massachusetts, uploading media with the subspecies is 1) a pretty safe ID and 2) Useful to people who might be searching through DOWO pics for analysis- it's easier to have birds previously-assigned. But as with anything in eBird, people are imperfect, and errors happen.

[egosnell2002]

I haven't fully read through all of the above discussion above, but yes, Turkey Vulture (Northern) is the expected species in Ontario, and for all of Canada and the US. It's really just a preference thing, both for the reviewer and what they want to put on the filter and the observer and what they want to put on their list. There's tons of subspecies for nearly everything, some counties here have Morning Dove (mainland) and others on the filter as well, despite them not actually being identifiable as far as I know. There's been some debate among eBird reviewers, and I think there was talk of either making things like Turkey Vulture (Northern) the only filter option, or just doing away with it in all counties to make it less confusing. I typically just eBird the highest taxonomic level the filter lets me if it's something like that you can't tell apart. Things like Yellow-rumped & Palm Warblers, Whote-crowned Sparrows, Dark-eyed Juncos, Northern Flickers, Downy Woodpeckers, Green-winged Teal and countless others, I usually only eBird to subspecies level if I actually get a good enough look at them to be sure, as the other subsp of these species are very possible, and not to mention visually identifiable, in Ontario.

Basically a long way of saying, it's up to you what you want to eBird in terms of subspecies.

[akiley]

1 hour ago, egosnell2002 said:

I haven't fully read through all of the above discussion above, but yes, Turkey Vulture (Northern) is the expected species in Ontario, and for all of Canada and the US. It's really just a preference thing, both for the reviewer and what they want to put on the filter and the observer and what they want to put on their list. There's tons of subspecies for nearly everything, some counties here have Morning Dove (mainland) and others on the filter as well, despite them not actually being identifiable as far as I know. There's been some debate among eBird reviewers, and I think there was talk of either making things like Turkey Vulture (Northern) the only filter option, or just doing away with it in all counties to make it less confusing. I typically just eBird the highest taxonomic level the filter lets me if it's something like that you can't tell apart. Things like Yellow-rumped & Palm Warblers, Whote-crowned Sparrows, Dark-eyed Juncos, Northern Flickers, Downy Woodpeckers, Green-winged Teal and countless others, I usually only eBird to subspecies level if I actually get a good enough look at them to be sure, as the other subsp of these species are very possible, and not to mention visually identifiable, in Ontario.

Basically a long way of saying, it's up to you what you want to eBird in terms of subspecies.

I agree with this. As a side note, eBird removed MODO subspecies two summers ago. There used to be (Mainland) and (Caribbean), but no longer. 

[Tony Leukering]

http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/2015/02/stone-age-to-industrial-age-evolution.html